Embracing the "femme"

They only are to some people. Some straight guys don't care one way or the other. Some don't like them and will make things difficult for them. Bullying still exists. It makes so called macho guys look weak because they are focusing on easier targets for them to gang up on - I don't want to say low hanging fruit, but that expression works for so many situations these days. Gay/bi men seem to be okay with them quite a bit more. They might consider one for friendship but not for a relationship. Among straight folks, no one is telling them to exclude or not to exclude certain personality styles for relationships. Overly effusive feminine guys can push someone's limit. I don't think I'd like to be around guys like Hilton Perez. It would be too toxic or wear me down. I have one friend who is more campy than feminine and I can only handle so much before my two or three day weekend visit comes to an end. I prefer to keep company with quieter and more thoughtful people.

 

To me it looks like people are conflating two very different things, being a diva with being feminine. Men with inborn femininity should not be confused with men who put on a theatrical performative version of it usually for shock value or clout. These are two very different modes of being, although I can see why such a confusion would arise particularly in the LGBT community. There is no reason at all why someone who is feminine could not also be quiet or thoughtful.

I would love to hear a woman's opinion on this.

 

You're right, and I guess this is where my confusion over it is too. When I think of a feminine gay man it brings up a very particular type of personality, more aligned with the diva stuff, because that's how mostly all of the ones I've met act. I don't really know what a non-diva feminine gay guy would be like since I haven't been exposed to many. I don't think all the diva ones are putting on a performance either, a lot of them seem to just naturally be that way.

I have a feminine gay friend for example who looks like a normal slightly masculine straight guy (well, except he wears really bright/colorful/floral clothes all the time like girls do) but then as soon as he says anything it's immediately obvious he's both gay and feminine. Not because of his voice, which is only slightly higher than average, it's the way he talks and the flamboyant way of behaving. For example I was with him yesterday driving around in his car, when suddenly he decided he wanted to listen to Brittney Spears songs. He didn't just turn on the song though, no, he rolled down all the windows, cranked the volume as high as it goes, put on the song 'girls just wanna have fun' and started singing it at the top of his lungs out the window at random people while dancing in his seat as he drove. It was pretty embarrassing for me to be sitting next to him as everyone stared at both of us with disapproving looks on their face.

His speech patterns are very extroverted/trendy/sarcastic too. His answers to almost anything are like this: 'oh my god YES! Bet, totally we NEED to lowkey do that - maybe we'll die, oh my gosh you'd lowkey love to watch me die wouldn't you! hahahahaha' etc. for hours and hours of conversation. He never runs out of energy, ever. Sends me Snapchats every single day of him making a funny/flirty face too.

That's what I think of when someone says feminine, and I've asked him about it, he says he's always been that way naturally since he was a little kid. So it's hard to mentally separate people like that from people more like you when the whole 'feminine' thing gets brought up, people just assume feminine means acting like my friend does.

 

Some of us just aren't feminine? I mean, I don't feel there's a part of me that is femme in any way. Not because I'm trying to be masc, but because I'm just being me and I'm not femme? I don't think it's inherent. Some people are, some people are. If I act femme, it's most definitely a performance. I don't have some deep, hidden femininity. I'm gay. I'm a dude. Simple.

See, personally, I wouldn't describe that behavior as gay. Why? One of my straight friends is exactly like that. Literally car rides with him are fun. He blasts Taylor Swift. He's not secretly gay or bi. He's straight. He jokes around with one of our gay friends about them being an old married couple but he's very clearly straight.

Not to mention that voice, clothing, behavior, appearance, can all be used to infer sexuality but never confirm. So nothing like that can really be classified as being "gay."

 

So there are two different conversations happening in the thread.

Feminine traits are different from being femme.

Femme is widely used to describe gender expression. We are talking about outward appearance and behavior

Femininity is talking about traits like compassion, nurturing, empathy, tolerance, etc.

So you can have a feminine guy who is very quiet because their gender expression isn't femme. That is where the difference lies.

So everyone has feminine traits. If you didn't you would be a fairly toxic person.

This is why it was sooo hard a culture to teach fathers to say "I love you" or spend time with their kids and take care of the house. To them, those are feminine traits. So if you think you can do those things, you have more feminine traits than you might think.

 

Not perfect by all means, but this is a helpful chart so people can understand how to conceptualize these hard ideas.

Think of each trait like a sound switch board instead of a "I'm either this or that" scenario. You can mix and match all of them, they can evolve as you grow as a person, and all combinations are perfectly okay.

There are blanks ones online if you google them. This one was filled out by someone that wanted to show people where they fall in the spectrum.

 

I’m not sure I see how those are “feminine” traits? Everything you mentioned are literally just things that a normal, sane person should have. Looking at those four words I see no connection to femininity. If you don’t have those kinds of things, you’re just a toxic person.

 

You don't see the difference because you are the result of a new generation where we taught men to be more feminine. You are the direct result of a cultural shift that didn't happen by accident. You are the dream of many activists from our past

But if you talk to older generations, if you talk to the people who complain about the "feminisation of America" I can guarantee you that they see you as a feminine guy. Specially if your response is "All genders are equal and can have the same traits"

When we talk about feminine and masculine we are talking about traits with historical context so we can talk about these different traits which is why this conversation is so hard. The conversation also shifts country to country, culture to culture and generation to generation.

While the conversation sounds trivial, femme people who are perceived as men are being killed and attacked all over the place because there is still people who believe that "men should act like men".

 

For what it's worth, I love feminine men as a woman. All the guys I truly liked were feminine men.

 

This is something I struggle with every day as well.

Over the next year I intend to start dressing more androgynously and I want to try to start wearing small amounts of subtle make-up too.

Relaxing enough to not present as a serious and stoic person will be a big part of that struggle. I want to be myself but I don't want to be afraid all the time.

 

i'm not sure, it's probably due to different life experiences, perhaps different lifestyles, different way of seeing gender and how one must express one's gender that one is supposed to be based on one's gender, and perhaps maybe even different psychological differences.

it's also statistically proven that gay/bi males are more prone to being femme in comparison to their hetero str8 male counterparts, if a boy is femme his chances of being gay skyrocket, the LGBT gay stereotypes aren't based on non-sense and or completely unfounded.

 

it's also because str8 guys are more likely to be afraid of being femme due to the stigma that historically typically comes with being femme as a man, for instance some of the common fears str8 guys may have about being femme would be that if they come across as too femme that they may loose respect from their masculine male friends and women alike, that they might be perceived as gay and that this will hurt their chances of being with a woman, as women typically find masculine men to be sexier hotter than femme men, whereas if you're a gay guy then you don't really care about this at all cuz u don't want to be with a woman anyway, many masc gay guys prefer to date femme gay guys so it works out, so that means there's less pressure for gay guys to not be femme in comparison to str8 guys.

 

when you played cops, was it the role of a femme female cop in your mind?

 

Yes some of the time

 

At times, some big blue collar guys - not necessarily bears - can be all the way gay on the Kinsey scale. Some of them are even disdainful of women if you observe what they say and do. I don't think they have many feminine traits, or very few. With their general attitude, I've seen that these extreme types are not people many would want to socialize with or get to know. I have wondered how someone who is so masculine, and effortlessly that way, is all the way over on the sliding scale. They're sort of a rarity from what I've seen.