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How do YOU define the terms "Man" and "Woman"?

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Zee Ick, Sep 20, 2018.

  1. Zee Ick

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    Please forgive me, but I do not understand how it is possible that we are having countless conversations on a global scale about "gender identity" without first defining the words being used in the discussion.

    If I cannot define a "woman" as a person having two X chromosomes, then what exactly am I supposed to use.

    Is a woman...

    A person who likes barbies?
    A person who wears dresses?
    A person who acts in a feminine manner?
    A person who just likes the socailly accepted norms associated with being a woman?
    A person who wants to be treated a certain way that they have determined how women should be treated?

    I mean, wtf are we even talking about here?

    It seems to me, that the very idea of "identifying" yourself as a "man" or "woman" is an attempt to define those terms according to ones own interpretations.

    Not only placing themselves in a neat little box, but also everyone else.

    Am I crazy, or is this whole conversation as insane as it seems?

    Shouldn't we just be talking about acceptance in absolute terms.

    EVERYONE is unique when it comes to their identity, why do we need to label people into groups in order to treat them with respect and dignity?
     
  2. whyamihere

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    I hope I don’t offend anyone but in its simplest term, a man is a person with a penis who has accepted the fact that he was born male. A woman is a person with a vagina that has accepted the fact that she was born female.

    Having a penis doesn’t sentence you to being branded a man for your entire life, and having a vagina doesn’t sentence you to being branded a woman for your entire life. If you feel like you are a man then you are a man, if you feel like you are a woman then you are a woman, no matter which sex you were assigned at birth.

    Whether or not you choose to accept your birth sex is up to you, and if you choose another identity for yourself that conflicts with your assigned sex from birth, then that’s what you are.

    Personally, I was born a man, I’m straight, and I identify as a man. I think, therefore I am. It’s not always as simple for me as it is for others, but that’s my standpoint. Don’t mean any offense to anyone who may struggling with their own gender identity.
     
  3. Zee Ick

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    Ok, I think I hear what you are saying, but this does not establish any criteria specifically addressing what "identifying as a man" means.

    It sounds like, being biologically male, is what you use to determine your gender.

    What I am more interested in, is what attributes besides biological gender do people out there use to determine gender identity?

    Feminine/masculine behavior?
    Fashion preferences?
    Hobbies?
    Favorite color?
    Philosophical ideals?


    Hopefully this doesn't come across as cynical or condescending, I am genuinely interested/confused about this.
     
  4. whyamihere

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    Not at all. It’s as interesting as it is confusing. But everyone is different. For some, like me, it is as easy as biological fact. For others, not so much.

    Everyone is born with either a penis (male) or a vagina (female). What you do with those, and what they mean to you later in life is totally up to you. I could say hey, I have a penis so I’m a biological male, but I like wearing my hair long and I like dressing in girl’s clothes so screw it, I’m a girl. Why not? My penis has nothing to do with who I am as a person.

    Or I could say because I was born a girl my parents always wanted me to wear pretty dresses and play with dolls, but I was always more interested in getting dirty and playing sports and being one of the boys. So I am one of the boys. Why not? My vagina has nothing to do with who I am as a person.

    A person’s likes and hobbies really don’t say much about their gender identity if you really think about it. Why is a stay at home dad who cooks and cleans and does laundry and takes care of the kids while his wife works at the car body shop and can change her husband’s minivan’s tires and oil while blindfolded and one arm tied behind her back in 30 minutes flat seen as backwards? Because of gender stereotypes. There are millions of them. But who a person really is and identifies with can live totally within them.

    Imagine your boss. Suit and tie, well groomed, fit, married to a beautiful woman, looks like your standard guy, wants everyone in the office to call her Barbara and use female pronouns when addressing her. Is that invalid because Barbara is too much of a normal looking person for a man, but wants to identify as a woman? That’s when it gets more complicated.

    For some, it is on a biological level. For others, it is not. Everyone is valid, but everyone is different. At the end of the day, you’re a woman if you say you are, or you’re a man if you say you are. I’m not a man because that’s what I’ve been told I am, I’m a man because that’s what I was assigned at birth and it’s is what I’ve come to accept. If my parents decided to dress me up like a girl and give me a girl’s name, I would swear to you that I’m the only woman on earth who was naturally born with a penis. Why? Because I believe it. It’s what I’ve chosen to accept and it’s who I’ve chosen to be. It may be different for you, and whatever is valid to you should be valid everywhere to everyone.
     
  5. Spot

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    Well, to me a man is either:
    1) Someone who is born biologically male and is comfortable with that
    2) Someone who was born biologically female but is uncomfortable with that takes steps to physically and socially transition to male.

    It's basically the same with the word woman. It's someone who is born biologically female or someone who is born biologically male but physically and socially transitions to female.

    I know some people actually cannot transition because of medical reasons or they live with an unsupportive family or I'm sure there's other reasons but I'd still use their preferred pronouns and everything as long as they would transition if I could.

    And the reason I identify as male is because I want male primary and secondary sex characteristics and I despise my female sex characteristics. Also, I use male pronouns but that's about it. It doesn't have anything to do with gender roles. Like I'm okay within the male gender role but I know some transguys are more feminine. Basically, I think everyone is a mix of feminine and masculine anyway like no one is 100% feminine or masculine, if that makes sense?

    I hope I answered your question. I think I did lol.
     
    #5 Spot, Sep 20, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  6. Zee Ick

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    This is the part where I get lost. If socially constructed gender roles are the basis for someone's gender identity dysphoria, then they really only have an issue with socially constructed gender roles. If a man chooses to be called a woman because he believes he fits into the commonly constructed idea of female gender roles, then isn't that playing into to whole issue of saying what a man or woman can and can't be? If a trans man says he's a woman because he likes dolls and dresses, then he's saying that men can't like dolls and dresses...

    Now this makes perfect sense to me. Wanting to have the physical body parts of a certain sex seems pretty straight forward. One could have that preference completely seperate from any other part of their identity. One could be feminine inpersonality, but want to have a penis/vagina, or masculine in personality and want to have a penis/vagina, whether they were born biologically male or female. This certainly removes any of the socially constructed gender role stuff out of the equation. Thank you!



    Anyone else?
     
  7. Hats

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    I struggled with this a lot when I was beginning the journey of questioning what my gender was. I quite like my partner’s description of gender identity which is that everyone has in their mind an image of who they are as a person. If you are a woman, your mental self-image is a woman, if you’re a man, your mental self-image is a man, if you’re neither of those then your image is different, or you may not have an image at all.

    For me I think it’s more about a sense of internal congruence – how do I feel happiest being perceived, and how do I perceive my body and mind?

    My own identity is complicated. There are times when I feel most congruent identifying as a woman and times when I feel most congruent identifying as a man. On one occasion I felt most congruent as agender, and I also slide around in the middle rather than feeling comfortable with a fixed position. However, none of this is really about gender roles and expression and preferences. Although my gender expression does slide as well, and I can see that as a pointer to identity, it’s a case of my gender identity driving my gender expression, rather than “I like X, therefore I must be Y,” if that makes sense.