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LGBT News Certain LGBT members oppose the idea of putting brown and black stripes for LGBT racial minorities

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by HeFleBiGen, Aug 7, 2018.

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  1. OGS

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    I think it's interesting how opposed so many people are. If different groups want to do it to shed light on an issue that I think really should be important to everyone I really don't see the issue. It's not like it's unprecedented. At the height of the AIDS crisis I recall several groups made rainbow flags with a black stipe along the bottom.
     
  2. CuriousLad

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    I think this has more to do with preference rather than outright exclusion. Strangely enough, I believe people have the right to be antagonistic towards a race in their personal lives; who they date, marry or befriend. It's only a problem when racism gets institutionalised and white people stop minding their own business. That's where we're really affected by lower wages, hateful comments, etc. Sure it would be nice if those dating profiles said, 'only Caucasians' but there's worse racism out there.
    This is actually very important and I forgot to mention it. This is why need more visibility, especially in the media. There's a reason why I've grown up associating anything gay with white cis men (attractive, fashionable ones) and that's where we need to practice inclusion. The few TV shows and movies that actually feature LGBT characters should have people of colour.

    And @Linning I basically agree with everything else you said but ardding two more stripes on the flag won't be effective. Brown, Black and Yellow are colours white people assigned to us and we might not agree with those. For a country as ethnically diverse as mine, to be collectively labelled as brown folk is frankly ignorant and insulting. We've got all shades here; from people as white as Caucasians, to people who look East Asian to people as black as Africans. A brown stripe would meaningless to us. In fact in all African and Asian countries, we don't consider ourselves black or brown because there aren't any white people to label us for their convenience. Our cultures are far more diverse than Caucasian subcultures could ever be so we don't answer to ignorant labels in our home countries. And the flag isn't limited to the West. Changing the flag won't mean anything to the vast majority of LGBT people outside the Americas and Europe and it would ironically be a different kind of exclusion. And really, what about the East and South Asians, what colour do we give them? In fact, at what point do we stop doling out colours to every single ethnic group?

    The flag, to the best of my understanding, wants to draw attention to the problems we face because of our sexualities and gender identities. Whether or not these problems get magnified by our race is a completely separate issue and they don't all have to be addressed together.
     
  3. Destin

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    People always mention this as an example of gay racism, but I don't see how that's racist at all. If you aren't attracted to a particular attribute it doesn't really matter what it is, you're not attracted to the person. It doesn't mean you hate that race or group, it's just not what you're attracted to. Short, tall, black, white, smoker or non-smoker, there's really no difference. I see profiles that say 'no smokers', 'no fats' , 'no druggies' etc. too but nobody calls that discrimination, yet people get offended when it's a race instead. Yea it's kinda blunt but it actually seems better to just put what they don't like on their profile so those not meeting their standards can move on to someone else and not waste their time messaging someone with no interest in them. I don't do it personally, but it seems more efficient. I mean what are we supposed to do, guilt everyone into hooking up with every black/asian person that messages them to not be a racist? There's nothing to fix here, people like what they like and we can't make them change their preferences. Some attributes are more sought after than others like blonde girls being considered more attractive by straight guys, it's never going to be totally equal, that's just life.

    (Sorry for the rant, this concept just annoys me as a white guy who isn't usually attracted to very dark skin colors but has an adopted black brother and a black childhood best friend both of who I love a lot, yet I'm apparently racist for not wanting to have sex with them).
     
    #23 Destin, Aug 12, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  4. OGS

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    Seriously, you don't see how "no black people" is racist--I'm seriously speechless..
     
  5. Destin

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    What's the alternative?

    Black guy (A): Hey man, want to hook up?
    Me: (B): Not really, sorry.
    (A): Why not?
    (B): You're not my type
    (A): How am I not your type?
    (B): You're just not.
    (A): But what do you mean?
    (B): Fine I was trying to be polite but my type is mostly white and Latino guys, I'm sure you'll find someone else to hook up with though.
    (A): Oh so you're a racist, screw you white boy.
    (B): *blocks person A*

    I've had that conversation about 200 times since I live in a 60% black city and feel it's rude to just ignore people on apps, I always respond even if it's just to say no. They rarely take no for an answer and it ends up hurting their feelings anyway since I don't feel right lying to people about the reason.

    Add another 200 times when it's a 50+ year old guy and I'm trying to politely say I'm only into people my own age, and once again they get offended and mad about ageism.

    All of those feeling-hurting conversations can be avoided with just a simple 'no black guys, under 30 only' marker on a profile which I don't do specifically because people get all offended about that too. It's literally a no win situation, if I put it on a profile, people get offended - If I tell them the truth when they message me, they get offended. If I ignore them completely and say nothing, they still get offended and often continue sending more messages eventually calling me rude for not responding.

    So what exactly am I and others supposed to do here since apparently not hooking up with everyone who sends me/us a message is racist, ageist, or transphobic?
     
    #25 Destin, Aug 12, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  6. KyleD

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    In my experience, I was never really conscious that my skin colour was such a big deal until I came out and became exposed to subtle and not so subtle forms of racism in the LGBT community. It is very hurtful when others talk about the race you belong to in a disparaging manner but it is a very pervasive problem within the gay community especially in circles dominated by young, white, cis gay men who can pass for straight; I do not feel welcome in that environment.

    The fact is that we are not this one big gay family who look out for each other. It can become a very abusive and mentally damaging atmosphere if you don't fit within the mold.
     
  7. Destin

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    I also just want to add - despite what I wrote above, I'd still be completely willing to have a relationship with someone of a skin type I don't find particularly attractive, just like I wouldn't rule someone out based on hair color, because it's just one of many attributes about them and personality is more important than looks of course. The thing is though I'm not on a hookup app looking for a relationship, and there's no way to get to know someone well through a 5 minute app conversation, so of course it's going to be based mostly on looks and whichever physical attributes are most appealing for a quick hookup, why would I hook up with someone I'm not into when there's 20 other guys I am into one click away. That doesn't make it racist, it's just what happens on a meat-market type of app where a person is judged based on a picture and like two sentences of text.
     
  8. Chierro

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    While I understand it's an unpopular opinion, I will actually side with @Destin here.

    When people are using hookup apps, everyone has a type. Literally everyone. Types range from age to race to body type. As someone who is slightly overweight, I'm painfully aware of that because I get rejected all the time for something that doesn't seem to change no matter how hard I try. There aren't a lot of Black guys in my area and I have hooked up with one or two before and it was just not something that's worked out for me. But, like Destin pointed out, when you're solely looking for hookups, you're looking for something in particular. Just look at profiles, so many of them say "No Asians," "No fatties," "21+," "Only under 30." It sucks sometimes, but people want what they want. Apps are, again per Destin, meat markets. Most guys in my area won't even give me a shot of talking to me because once two years ago I said something annoying or they like how we talk but are not interested in my body type.

    And frankly, the situation Destin described is much better than most people handle. For example, I am slightly overweight. I can talk with a guy and he can like how my face looks and like how we talk but as soon as he sees my body, suddenly I'm not his type. It sucks, but I'm much rather told, "I'm sorry, I'm not interested" than getting blocked or ignored.

    And should I be looking for a relationship, the color of skin is least priority. Because I'm looking for something more than a hookup, I'm looking for a meaningful connection and it doesn't matter if that person is white, Black, Latino, what have you. It matters if I have a connection with that person. If I'm hooking up, I'm typically not looking for some meaningful connection; just looking for something quick and fun where everyone is into it.
     
  9. PatrickUK

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    Not sure about adding stripes, but I can see why black and ethnic minority groups might want to adapt the rainbow flag to highlight specific issues and concerns that are pertinent to them (including exclusionary statements about skin colour). If you go on a pride march you will already see the rainbow flag adapted by various interest groups and organisations to raise awareness of their community or brand and that's totally okay with me. I find it kind of interesting to see who is there and what they represent.
     
  10. Spot

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    It's stupid. The flag has nothing to do with race and it never has. Black isn't even a color so it's not a rainbow lmao. The black and brown don't look good on the flag either, it looks like they were just slapped on there. Which I'm pretty sure they were. Also, having a preference isn't racism. Okay, I'm done now.

    Oh well, I've never seen it used outside of tumblr. I use the rainbow flag as does everyone else I know.
     
  11. smurf

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    Not enough thread to explain the whole "its super weird that I a human wasn't born liking dark skinned people and has nothing to do with the racist environment that I was raised it. I was born with an innate preference to white people is all. Not racist in the slightest".

    We'll just call it a preference for now because phew.

    Onto the show!

    This is where the thinking goes a bit wrong. The LGBT community is not an "organization" that must only speak with one voice in order to convince straight people to not kill us. When was the last time you heard a homophobe said "Oh well I would definitely let them marry, but have you seen their branding? All over the place. Do they want marriage? Racial Equality? Gender equality? Too complex for me to support. That's why I think they shouldn't get married!"

    And lets say that the LGBT community has to only have one message. Don't you find it incredible that you are implying that your way is the best way? Right now you are simply opposing what other people see as a need for their own communities. This doesn't affect you in the slightest, but yet here you are being so against it. And you have no idea why other than "But what will straight people think?!"

    That is where you are wrong.

    MANY people of color are saying that there is a problem on how they are treated. You have at least 2 people of color here telling it directly to you, you have scholars pointing out the many ways that LGBT institutions are racists, the HRC not too long ago put out a report of how they are soooo incredibly racist, but you dismiss it all because....why exactly? Have you been studying this subject for you to be able to dismiss our experiences based on your own academic rigor? Or does it just annoy you that people are voicing their discomfort and acting on them? Those snowflakes, am I right?

    You have people who see a problem, whether you like it or not, and are taking strides to work on it.

    Meanwhile, you sit here annoyed that people are out in their communities creating change they want for themselves while you seem to offer nothing for them, but still demand that they stop using this new flag because apparently it affects your life?

    This flag isn't for the whole world. This flag was created by and for communities in the US. You will probably never see this flag in your country.
     
  12. KyleD

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    I'm confused because some members on here are arguing that being a racial minority isn't related to being LGBT, while at the same time other members are justifying the exclusion of an entire race of people based upon how dark their skin colour is. These mixed messages are really confusing.
     
  13. Lin1

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    @Destin

    If you don't realize that attraction and what someone perceive as attractive is hugely suggested by society, medias and else, you are being really naive.

    Why do you think as a society we went from finding larger women the eptitome of beauty a few hundred of years ago to now finding skinny women the most attractive, why were blonde with light eyes considered unnatractive and undesirable during antique times but yet are now seen as "the goal" for a lot of people who are willing to die their hair blonde. Why do you think some black people and asians are risking skin cancer with whitening products and eye surgergy, if it's not highly suggested to them that they aren't the definition of attractive, that those things they are born with (skin color, specific eye shape) will be the things that will keep them from being seen as attractive by most people and will lower their dating possibilities even though they tick every other boxes, because people have "preferences".

    Yes preferences are fine, not being attracted to someone is fine, but not even giving someone a shot because they are black/Asian or not european-looking enough, IS bigotted.

    it's something to not be attracted to someone (though one should want to look at the roots of why they like the thing they like and dislike the thing they do) but it's a whole other thing to boycott people of certain ethnicity. As a person of color, I couldn't care less about someone not wanting to date me due to my skin color, I don't expect everyone to like me or giving me a shot, but if you can't see why having many people write stuff such as "No black" or "No Asian" on their profile could damage people's self-esteem and make them feel unwelcome within the community I have no problem seeing why you think people having a preference about the skin color of the person they date is "fine" and "normal".

    If that helps you I couldn't care less if two brown and black stripes are added to the flag, but I do think it's time we get representation and an acknowledgement of what being queer and a person of color actually is because this whole thread is full of talking about people of color like they don't belong.


    "They", who the heck is "they"? "They", like they are something else totally unrelated to the LGBT like "they" aren't part and don't exist in the community because apparently, the idea that someone could be black and gay or black and trans and the concept that sexuality and race could be intertwinned is oddly surreal."They" who should not be named because interestingly enough nobody on this thread actually dared to prounounce the name or detail who "they" represent as if "they" is enough of a descriptive, because we all know who "they" refers to, impossible that "they" may not be all the same or feel all the same, or heaven forbid, agree on everything, or that white people may be part of that "they" who want to change the flag and shed lights to issues people of color have. So again, who the heck is "they"?

    I am queer and I am a person of color and (believe it or not) I am part of this community. I shouldn't need a new flag to be and feel welcome and representated inside this community but apparently I actually do because it's obvious that many people on here feel like they get to decide what the rainbow flag represent (and according to most it's not there to represent me) and who can use it/edit it , and they get to tell ME that the community is inclusive (all while dismissing concerns raised by people of color and else who are part of the community), but sure, the current community is fine, we are all very much united and very much inclusive of each other, because prefering a skin color over an other is just a "preference" and to be "expected" and because any race concern inside the community shouldn't be raised and dealt with within the community but at a "Black live matters" rally. Sounds like the perfect community to be a part of, really.


    Starting this thread, I had no opinion on the flag, I had no need at all for more colors on the rainbow flag but this thread made me realize how even within the community privilege is rampant, and how even people who have dealth with certain form of discrimination (homophobia/transphobia) are blind to their own shortfalls and that no matter how gay I am and how inclusive the LGBTQ+ community pretends to be, my skin color will always be an obstacle, something that will apparently only be worth tackling and mentioning and fighting for within the community once all white queer and trans folks will have had the equal rights and the attention they think they deserve and have all their problems sorted (we don't want to confuse cis-het with our 'marketing' do we?). Then maybe I (we) should get a mention.
    In the meantime, I shall shut up about my struggles as a queer woman of color and sit through listening to the community tell me what the community is about and how wonderfully inclusive it is but, hey, if you really want to talk about race and your struggles about being a queer woman of color, you might want to head over to "black lives matter" because we don't do race here, just the gay shit.

    This thread has make me feel very unwelcome inside the "LGBT community" but if anything it has made me an even more fervant activist because it reminds me that while I may fight for the rights of others, those same people may never want to fight for me and there is no better advocate than being your own.
     
  14. CuriousLad

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    Wow I certainly hope you're referring to this new proposed flag and not the original one. Because like the rest of the world, the rainbow flag has been sported in every single pride protest and LGBT event here even in the conservative, small towns. I know it was created in SF but it's since been adopted all across the World and there's no point keeping it all to yourself. America is more or less a reflection of the World's social fabric. Even if you just consider Asian and African immigrants in the US, they won't fall into these narrow colour schemes. We're also completely forgetting North-East Indians, Nepalese, Bhutanese, East and South-East Asians for example. Unless you'd like to add a different shade of yellow at the risk of sounding racist
     
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