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Butch vs trans again

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Mihael, Jul 26, 2018.

  1. Mihael

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    Not to spam someone else's tread... I wonder what the difference between being a butch woman or a trans man is. Assuming that this butch woman likes to perform masculinity and feels it is her authentic expression, not play pretend. Is there a difference? Or is it just a label difference? I'm very well aware that my gender identity stems from stereotypical gender attributes and someone said that it doesn't make me a man just because I like to behave like one. So maybe I shouldn't say it that I am a dude. But idk, it just ... makes me cringe. It's all political correctness. Why am I supposed to not say what I think or feel like a bad person for what I think and feel? I am a woman who expresses herself like a man and hence feels that she is one. Big deal, gah. Reeeeally... Maybe I am a butch woman even though it feels differently in my head? And so what? Like, am I supposed to convince everyone now that I am indeed a male? Or a female, maybe? Because some people will not believe it. (Too much testosterone in my behaviour, sorry) It's all way too much thinking! If someone says that I am a woman despite all those things, I feel upset that they didn't hear what I am saying... if that makes any sense.
     
  2. Mihael

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    Or maybe the real being trans is about something different? But idk, I ain't changing my label on this site. I tried different ones, this one makes the most sense, it seems.
     
  3. Chris2018

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    And this right here is what scares me...

    If you are a man, you are a man. Not butch.

    I just posted about this being my fear as I am bigender. For weeks I feel 100% female. Not butch at all. I feel comfortable with my body, pronouns, hair, name the works. Then one day it's like a switch gets flipped and I feel 100% male. NOT butch. I am a straight female (or gay man) depending on the day. My name, pronouns, hair, and body all give me extreme discomfort on guy days.

    When I told a family member I was cutting off my har into a short cute pixie I was told I'd look Butch. No no no and no. Butch isnt where I'm going at all. I am either a pretty woman or handsome man. Not butch and not androgynous. Butch is not a label I feel comfortable with myself in slightest.

    The difference?? Do you feel in your hear that your a man? Its completely up to you what label you chose and who you are. Butch identified people dont have a different gender identity then the one assigned to them at birth. They are simply more masculine. This doesn't mean they are a man. Does this help you at all??
     
  4. Chris2018

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    *****I am completely closeted to everyone except my husband*****
     
  5. DreamerAsh

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    A butch woman and a trans man are basically the same in expression. The extremes of each side is very different though. A butch woman is not going to take hormones, or dislike their woman body like a trans guy will. They take pride in their femme masculine appearance. More qualities are important than like traditionally masculine things. Such as being strong is considered a masculine trait in some cultures so by doing that a butch woman feels masculine. A trans man would want to wear not masculine style women cut clothes, but clothes wholely male like from the men's section. That's the difference. But, pre-everything and before someone accepts themselves, most trans men identify as butch woman.
     
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  6. Mihael

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    But a butch woman is not femme. By definition. She is very masculine. And this is who she is, not some mask in order to smash the patriarchy. And what if inside this person feels they are a male?

    Well, atm I'm not talking about people who take hormones and surgically alter themselves or who have body dysmorphia.

    And what is even the difference between men's and women clothes? Seriously, take a generic male tshirt, nothing inherently male about this item. If we leave out clothes that have slightly different cuts to fit different bodies. But I think a butch woman would like to wear male clothes, they are very different from their female marketed copies. There is a certain kind of expression that you will not get in tomboy clothes.

    I mean there are more obvious examples of being a butch woman out there, like all those female athletes who dislike skirts and wear jeans and tshirts all the time. And who never doubted if they are female even if they are said to be masculine. But what if this is not enouh masculinity?
     
  7. Chris2018

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    Truthfully, I guess it could be, depending on the feelings of said person could be the same. If a butch woman feels very masculine and looks very masculine, prefers male pronouns and feels any amount of discomfort with their body, then I suppose it could be the same. It's all in the label that feels right.

    Butch for me feels completely wrong. I do not identify with butch at all. Bigender or genderfluid feels right. But even when I'm a Male, I dont feel butch. I am a man.

    It's all in how you want to be seen and what feels right. If you think you may be a butch woman, or transmasculine, or a transman, that's all up to you. You really dont even have to label yourself. I know for me, I have an extreme detachment to the term butch. I will never use this label for me.

    What feels right to you? Do you feel in your heart that you a butch woman? Or do you feel that you are a man?
     
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  8. tystnad

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    The difference between a masculine woman (i'm a bit hesitant to use the term butch if not talking specifically about a masculine-presenting lesbian, because the word originated in lesbian culture) and a trans man is that one is a woman, and one is a man. but when is someone a woman? when is someone a man? what is gender, really, especially when we take the concept and stretch it beyond traditional understandings of male as masculine and female as feminine? is your gender something you feel? is it a box that contains certain characteristics defined by society? is it no more than an arbitrary category? you'll likely hear different answers depending on who you ask, influenced by people's cultural attitudes, their own experience, if and if so what kind of gender theory they're interested in, etc.

    i think it's important to navigate your own way amongst all these things, to find a way to categorise things in a way that works for you individually (or not categorise at all, which is what i personally prefer to do). i don't think there's a way to categorise the world in a way that includes every individual experience and so instead of trying to theorize the entire world, it sometimes just is easiest to set things out for yourself. you feel male, whatever that means to you? then you are. you want people to see you as male, however way you present? then ask for it, according to your demands and what you need to feel more you (which is often something we discover amongst the way). have you define the paths you take, and not the people who say thinks like "it doesn't make me a man just because I like to behave like one" or because "some people will not believe it". Because what do they know about how you feel? They're not you! Frankly, even if you present as a masculine woman, people are going to tell you off in ways. there's always going to be people claiming a real woman should be feminine or whatever. might as well tell them off using something you feel comfortable calling yourself.

    it's very easy for people to fall into a sort of binary thinking when it comes to male - female, masculine - feminine. it's what all of society is shaped around, what we're taught from a young ago, and for many people that binary is actually really helpful in figuring out how they feel about things, and that's completely okay because it does closely relate to how people will interpret your gender! for other people the categories that exist just don't fit, they're defined in ways that don't work for them, and they need reworking. i think i brought this up in another thread you're in so sorry if this sounds repetitive, but this is why there are butch lesbians who identify as women but still use he/him pronouns, and/or bind, and/or even take testosterone (and partly because of this i have to disagree with @DreamerAsh on this statement: "they take pride in their femme masculine appearance" because i think that's a bit too simple an interpretation of masculine women, unfortunately, as a lot of masculine women [not just from this example] do not actually want to embrace a feminine sort of masculinity). it's a matter of redefining boxes to fit your experience (and perhaps criticizing the concept of gender the way it is frequently seen as you go). their route is definitely not an easy one to take because it is one that you need to defend 24/7, and i'm by no way suggesting it's what you take, but i wanted to bring it up just to see how complicated gender is, especially when you let go of thinking of genders as boxes with defining qualities.

    as for this:
    the difference is marketing (more categories = more money), societal and cultural ideas of what is appropriate for which gender (ie in modern-day western countries dresses are considered girls-only) and societal and cultural (beauty) ideals of what about a body should be emphasized for which gender (i.e. women's shirts that are fitted around the waist to emphasize curves). but clothes don't have gender. there's nothing inherently feminine about a dress, that is something society has assigned to it. girls don't naturally like pink more than boys do, and there's no explanation why men's clothes often have dark, muted colours and women's clothing bright or pastel colours beyond the things i mentioned. it's a bit of an endless circle. using the example of a dress: society decides dresses are feminine and that feminine = female, as a result a large percentage of women start wearing dresses, and based on that people will look at a person wearing a dress and assume this person is female. and for some people that is helpful in figuring out gender, because conforming to femininity can help people read you as female, and comforming to masculinity can help people see you as male, and for those people a gender binary and gender categories with strict definitions can actually be helpful. but that definitely does not apply to everyone, and definitely doesn't mean that clothes are inherently gendered. virtually all the clothes i wear are from men's sections, but that does not, at all, make me a man. i just prefer their colours, their fit which helps distract from the curves of my body, their higher quality fabrics, the fact that they're typically a bit longer (i'm too tall for most women's sizes) and the more neutral appearance vs the often hyperfeminine appearance of many women's clothes. i have a male friend who gets almost all of his clothes out of his mother's closet, but absolutely, in no way, identifies as anything other than male. clothes don't have gender. but marketing loves having more categories. it's for that same reason that there are weirdly gendered products, like toothpaste for men, women's handtools, or pritt sticks for girls.
     
  9. Aberrance

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    At the end of the day this is the statement you're working around when differentiating whether someone is a trans man or a butch woman. Throughout my life I was constantly seen as a butch woman, hence I was thought to be a lesbian as people would stereotype the way I presented even though I'd never shown an interest in women. However I knew, in myself, that I was not a lesbian. I'd always known I was into guys but the term 'straight' didn't ever feel right to me. Hence over time I realised that when taking a lot of varying factors into account, I was not a woman. The main difference between a butch lesbian and a trans man is that a butch lesbian doesn't necessarily feel uncomfrotable in her body, she doesn't hate it, doesn't experience gender dysphoria. Yes she might dislike gender roles and societies perceptions of women but that doesn't make her trans. No matter how masculine she is, she is not a man. A trans man experiences gender dysphoria, dislikes his body and wants to be perceived as male not because of societies perceptions of men or women but because being a man is ingrained in him and his brain chemistry. He could be a feminine man, a masculine man, whatever. But he is a man, male pronouns resonate with him, when he looks in the mirror he needs to see a man as that is who he feels he is on the inside.
     
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  10. Mihael

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    If I had to choose blindly I would say I am male, but I know it's not realistic and has its problems. I have my feminine moods sometimes, but it doesn't change much, I feel like a genderfluid dude at best. The body things always rub me the wrong way, it's not about that for me at all. They even make me feel rejected, hurt. If I am a guy, I am a guy without taking any more testosterone, period. It doesn't mean I want to be male, it means I am male in some sense that is does not depend on this. However, I might want to change something if I looked differently than I do and had some irksomely female characteristic, like FF breasts. Being really curvy bothers me as well, so I did lose some weight. However, it might be a normal human thing to not like being overly curvy unless you feel ultra-female inside.

    "Their fit helps me distract from the curves of my body"
    Yes, exactly. Men's clothes are frequently loose if anyhing, not cut specifically male.
    Moreover, what if the dressing style is just... not having the mood to deal with other people staring at the curves? Idk, male clothes make me feel like a boss, and not on display. They feel like an armour. I like to feel like that, but I imagine it's not neccesarily a gendered feeling to like that.
    Agreed about the marketing.
     
  11. Mihael

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    Well, not being a steroid jock with bdd doesn’t make someone not a man.
     
  12. tystnad

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    you can be a man, or whichever way you chose to identify, even if you do not fit the strictest definitions of the category, even if you do not strive to do so, even if everyone tells you that for not wanting to fit whatever they think are the “requirements” to be a certain gender. that’s not the easiest position to be in because it is one you’ll be asked to defend over and over again... but if you feel like you’re a man (or a genderfluid man like you mentioned in your post), you probably are - and if not, you’ll figure it out during your journey. having the space to explore that is important; don’t let people take that away from you! and i hope you’ll one day find yourself around people (whether that are people you know who change, or new people) who will not tell you you can’t be male or male-aligned if you don’t want to take hormones, if you don’t hate every part of your body, the other things you said in your post people have told you. everyone’s journey, and everyone’s approach to gender, is unique. just because you don’t find the dominant narrative doesn’t mean you’re not real. you do you!
     
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  13. Hawk

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    I've actually talked to some butch women/people and a lot of them do prefer male pronouns, and dress and present masculinely. I know some even use terms like "butch ftm" or "queer butch". I know some butch people even undergo top surgery. The other thing is, I know "butch" is more of a "lesbian-made" term, but there are people who ID as butch, but don't ID as "women". When I heard all this myself, it made me even more confused as to where the line was between butch and trans, but I don't really think there is one. It's just how the individual is comfortable identifying.

    I actually found a quote someone else found from a butch ftm person, Ivan Coyote, "I had already spent years feeling like I was perched with one foot on a trans-shaped rowboat and the other foot resting on a butch dock, balancing myself and my language and words and work in the space between them,".

    It is ok to occupy a space in between trans and butch, and if you prefer to identify as trans* (whatever that means to you), then that's ok too, I don't think every man is 100% masculine or every woman is 100% feminine, and it's harder for trans* people to be accepted when you have even a HINT of femininity/masculinity.
     
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  14. ken867

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    If you have gender dysphoria than you are transgender. Now gender dysphoria can be different for certain people but in order to go through hormone replacement theory and I believe to have that want to go through hormone replacement therapy or surgery you would need to have gender dysphoria. A butch woman acting "like a man" or being more masculine doesn't make her a man. some woman tends to act more masculine like and therefore the term butch was invented. If you have gender dysphoria I would say its safe to say that your transgender or possibly genderqueer or bigender or nonbinary.
     
  15. Hawk

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    Having dysphoria isn't the be-all-end-all of being trans*, and gender is a hell of a lot more complex than that.

    As I said above, there are some butch-identified people who have dysphoria and do opt for top surgery and use he/him pronouns. To reiterate, some people ID as butch, but don't ID as "women". There is a middle ground where a lot of people do fall, yet there's not a lot of representation so I don't think a lot of people, when questioning their gender, realize that and they think they have to pick a side; butch or trans.

    It's a lot harder for afab people regarding gender because society has deemed it acceptable for them to present as masculine and experiment with masculinity, and it can get confusing as to where a person may fall on the spectrum.

    Yes, there are differing degrees of "butchness" if you will, and like men and women, you can't just clump all butch identifying people in one category and call every single one of them "women" because not everyone who DOES ID as butch will associate with the word "woman".
     
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  16. ken867

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    I did not know that butch was a gender identity and wasn't trying to offend anyone. I was just giving my personal opinion of someone who is transgender. Of course, there are people who are butch that may decide to have top surgery. What I was referring to was that usually on both sides there can be different forms of dysphoria. My understanding of the thread was that someone was asking about the differences between a butch woman and a transgender male. I have only known people who are lesbians to identify as butch so I don't know much about the different forms.
     
  17. Mihael

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    Okay, I'm back home so I can reply in detail.

    Sure, butch is a much narrower term. Idk if I'd qualify... I'm bi and it's not lesbianism that made me into what I am, but rather science/tech.

    Thank you for your kind words. It makes me feel ... better.
     
  18. Mihael

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    This is interesting, Hawk. So there is no clear line in the end.

    I think... I know some straight, heteronormative tomboys. Well, obviously, I've been doing lots of guy stuff and been a girl during that, right? It looks somewhat different from the butch masculinity. The tomboy will fix machines and plays football and still wears a dress to a party, she will not get rid of her feminine attributes like long hair jut for the sake of it. Maybe because it's more practical. She likes to feel feminine in some contexts and conforms to the idea of being normatively attractive at least in any way, it's something that works for her and what makes her feel good in a relationships and flirt.

    Most trans men will prefer their partners to be women as well. So there is a divide in some points between butch and masculine, as far as I can tell, butch s a specific kind of msculine. Not to say that individuals like that can't like men, but they usually don't, perhabs that's why it is a lesbian term. Idk... I like dudes, but the butch expression speaks to me and the sort of flirt based on long hair and skirts and prettines makes me feel... dysphoric, I guess. I hate it. That's not the kind of attractive I want to be. I guess this is what motivates butches to cut their hair off etc.

    I don't really think I have gender dysphoria, I don't hate myself. The narrative of dysphoria is very ciscentric. Someone would say I feel uncomfortable with my assigned gender... no, I don't feel uncomfortable having ovaries, but I am not a woman. I don't feel like I should act however a woman is supposed to act according to... hell knows who. I don't feel obligated to anything just because someone random said that I shoud do x y and z because ovaries. That is their take on ovaries, mine is different. This pathologises gender variance. It's not an illness to be different. Someone would say I don't like being a female, because they equate being female with certain behavioural paterns or with feeling like she - but this is just their unjustified opinion.

    In my experience, lesbians find identifying as masculine or feminine a strange act that perpetuate patriarchy. If you are a woman, why need any more description to it? That kind of thing. By identifying as butch , you add on to the "woman", depart from it. If you get what I mean? "Just woman" doesn't fit.
     
  19. tystnad

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    no worries, i wasn't trying to police the term in the strictest sense per se, just wanted to bring it up because i've seen a lot of people in this forum use butch simply as a word meaning masculine, referring to straight women and even masculinity in men sometimes, and i feel like that erases the entire history of the term. butch is an identity in itself, not just a descriptor meaning masculine. like @Hawk states to be butch does not necessarily mean to be a woman, either (i think it might be worth adding here the fact that not all lesbians identify as women, either. the relationship between gender and sexuality can be incredibly complicated because gender is typically defined in heteronormative terms (i.e. 'man' and 'woman' as being opposites because they complete each other), and it is perhaps even more complicated when there are no men involved due to the patriarchal, man-centric nature of our society. In the (in)famous words of Monique Wittig, "It would be incorrect to say that lesbians associate, make love, live with women, for 'woman' has meaning only in heterosexual systems of thought and heterosexual economic systems. Lesbians are not women." Agree or disagree with that statement, but either way, a lot of lesbian authors (possibly other lgbt authors too but my knowledge doesn't expand that far right now) have brought up similar sentiments about the relationship between society, sexuality and gender which shows that it's not as straightforward as some people sometimes assume).

    although there is definitely no clear line to draw between being butch and being masculine, i would interpret the difference to be roughly that masculinity is associated with men - and butch is not. butch is not usually to aspire to look like a man, because (at least the usage as it originated in lesbian culture) their world does not center on men, and men have absolutely nothing to do with the way they express themselves (which is why i feel very uncomfortable with (often gay) men calling themselves butch - it is stripping the word of its roots entirely and repurposing it to involve men again. again, i'm not going to be gatekeeping, but it is a clear example of how man-centric our society is when words specifically detached from men are being adopted by men as well). that does not by mean butchness is only for women by definition, because there is more than just the categories man/women. masculinity, however, is a word typically associated with being male, or being manly (whatever that means), aka by default about men in one way or another. of course, that doesn't imply there is no overlap in expression between someone who is butch and someone who is masculine, it all depends on the the meaning people give to things. it also doesn't really make things easier to figure out...

    for me, i actually find a lot of comfort in how complicated these matters are, because it gives me an excuse to not have to define myself in the strictest sense. legally, i call myself a woman, because within a binary system that's what i relate to more than to being male, but ultimately i would be happier in a world without gender boxes whatsoever because the more i learn about gender, the less any of it makes sense, and the more it starts to feel completely arbitrary. i very much respect people's individual identities and i will never tell someone their gender is invalid - just for me, personally, it makes no sense to put myself in a box of any kind, be it male, female, or a non-binary identity. i actually found a lot of comfort in being, well, a gender failure, basically. embracing failure (whether that means embracing a label and knowing people will say you're doing it wrong, or not bothering to label at all) can be incredibly liberating, to be honest. it comes with not being affected by what other people think, because you already know you're doing it wrong in their eyes and have grown completely comfortable with it. it helped me a lot more with self-acceptance than trying to find a label that fit perfectly. but i know that's not for everyone at all. just a perspective :slight_smile:
     
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  20. ken867

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    Hi Emerry something I just wanted to clear up. Having gender dysphoria doesnt exactly mean that you hate yourself. That can be a part of havng gender syphoria but basically the gender you werborn into at birth does not match your gender identity and that can cause dsicomfort. Gender dysphoria can receed by hormone replacement therapy and orsurgery. I guess whatIm trying to say is as a trans man I dont hate yself. Yeah sometimes my dysphoria can make me feel that way but thats just a part of it. Having dysphria is mcuh more complicated than just that. I know of people who are transgender and ahve n problem with having ovaries but wish to 'start hormones and such. And I elieve what your saying is why cant a comeone just be who they are withought putting a label on themself? If so I comepletely understand that. Have ou thpught of possibly being non-binary or genderqueer, or like you mentioned in the post butch? Hope everything goes well for you and with your journey! :slight_smile: