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Racial inferiority - I want to feel better

Discussion in 'General Support and Advice' started by Steve FS, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. Steve FS

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    It has always bothered me that I don't look like other gay guys, but it hasn't bothered me as much until I started living in Seattle. I started to realize that when I would try to dress nicely or work out, I involuntarily imagined wanting to be a sexy, fit, caucasian guy. I remember one day dressing up really nicely and doing my hair, only to walk in front of the mirror and feeling disappointment that I looked so brown.

    I try to bring this up to other people, but I feel like no one really understands. All the gay guys I know are caucasian (and vehemently deny that this is a problem). All the POCs that I talk to are not gay. I don't have anyone in my life that has gone through what I'm going through right now.

    And honestly, I'm working really hard to be strong and to not let it get to me, but it's hard when you enter an establishment and people turn the other way. It's hard feeling invisible, and then feeling so desperate that you cling onto any amount of attention that you can get.

    It's toxic, and it's disgusting, and I feel like I'm denying my ethnicity more and more each day, and I shouldn't. I should feel handsome, desired, and capable, but I don't. To other gay guys, I'm just a guy shoved into the "Asian" category they have ######.

    So.. What do I do? I can never be the attractive white guy my mind is set so much on being. I feel inferior in relationships because of something I can't change. It's not easy to just turn "off" this mindset when you've grown up learning that pale is good, and dark is bad. It's a deeply rooted habit.
     
  2. Kodo

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    While I do not come from the same ethnic background, I feel I can understand part of where you are coming from. I am a caucasian gay man, but the catch for me is that I'm trans. I'm constantly bombarded with what a "real man" should look like or should have. This even goes within the LGBT community - there are expectations that gay men have and are pressured to abide by. When I entered into a relationship with a cisgendered gay man, I constantly worried that I would not be enough because I'm trans. I worried I could not completely fulfill what he would want from me because of physical traits I have no control over. I knew the thinking was wrong, but it didn't matter. It's been drilled into me that trans is less, perhaps the same way that it has been drilled into you that asian is less.

    So we don't measure up to what a gay man 'should be.' But if every gay man was your vanilla caucasian, cisgendered guy... this world would be a terribly boring place. The color of your skin and the marks of your ethnicity isn't something you can change. Just as the fact that I am transgender isn't something I can change. I will always be different from a cis gay man. You will always be different from a caucasian gay man. But being different does not mean you are less. In fact I would argue the opposite.

    The fact that you experience this struggle gives you a unique perspective, one that the average white gay guy doesn't have. We're both part of a double minority in our own regards... finding peace and balance in that is a journey. In all of the interactions I have had with you, I know for a fact you're an amazing guy. You are beautiful, brother. Not just in a physical sense but in a deep, real way. Anyone who would think less of you because of your ethnicity isn't worth being with. Period.

    It isn't easy changing your thinking. God knows I still struggle and probably will for years over not having what cis-men have. But you cannot let that thinking tear you up. Acceptance takes time. Be patient and forgiving of yourself. Learn to analyze your differences in a positive light. How does being asian add to your life and perspective? I believe that we're all designed a certain way, for a reason. The way you are built isn't an accident. Sometimes it takes a lot of pain to come to a place where we realize the things we hated most about ourselves are what makes us stronger, better people.
     
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  3. fadedstar

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    From what I understand of Asian history (which isn't much) isn't lighter skin considered "superior" because the upper classes stayed indoors all the time and associated darker skin with peasantry being out in the sun and doing physical labor? As far as I'm aware this mentality doesn't exist in European culture (if it ever did it was completely wiped out by several revolutions that happened hundreds of years ago.) I can't really speak for the U.S. since I've never lived there but I'm pretty sure that insipidly pale skin is considered almost universally unattractive among all European derived cultures. I'm not saying you don't experience any kind of discrimination at all but what I'm saying is it might not be about "looking so brown." I'm also not saying that you have formed that mentality consciously but maybe subconsciously you are carrying some intergenerational baggage. From what I gather about "gay culture" there seems to be a particular ongoing issue with how Asians are treated. Since I don't really know what causes this I can't really offer you a solution.
     
    #3 fadedstar, Jun 12, 2018
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  4. normalwolverine

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    I am a POC. And I am glad that you realize this type of thinking is a problem because, honestly, it often seems like so many Asians feel/think this way but many of them never really realize it's problematic.

    And, to be frank you with...as another POC who is not Asian, if it were easy to offend me...all of the times I see posts and writings like this, I would be offended by it. Instead, I just get annoyed. You have to think about what you're saying. You said the POC you try to talk to about this aren't gay, so they don't understand. Well, you've got a gay POC here. And when I read stuff like this, all I "hear" is "only white people are valuable and only white people can be attractive." What about this do you expect me to understand? It's an insult--to you and to me.

    I don't want you to misunderstand my tone or intent, either. I'm not trying to put you down or make you feel worse. I just want you to understand, because you're looking for understanding on this--this type of thinking hurts you and makes you feel bad, but you're not the only one it hurts and degrades. You feel shoved aside as an Asian for not being white while you're shoving aside other POC for the same thing (i.e. "I imagine being a sexy, fit white guy," plus filling in the blanks, i.e. you fill invisible to white people and you feel inferior to the white guys you date). Remember that.

    I really do understand where you're coming from. The average POC goes through a "white people are superior" phase; it's just some never come out of it. I don't think anything anyone responds to you here is going to help you come out of it. For me, personally, I think what helped was learning more about history and coming to understand the way modern society truly operates--all in terms of race. I think for anyone who really understands racial history (not the lies they teach in school and the millions of facts/events they leave out) and modern race relations, it's fairly impossible to put white people on a pedestal--I've found this is even true for white people. And it doesn't happen over night; it takes years. I call it "de-programming." I went through years of just reading books about this stuff, gaining awareness. And I read about everybody--Asian Americans, black Americans, Hispanic Americans. Amazon was my best friend (still is, but for other reasons now), but I also discovered books in bookstores in the history sections and "cultural studies" sections and such.

    Also, I'm a lesbian...but the first time I saw your pic on this site (assuming your avatar is you), I thought, "He is good-looking." You're a good-looking man. You don't have to be white to be an attractive man. You don't have to have the same type of body build white guys have, or black guys have (since a lot of people put black male bodies on a pedestal), to have a nice body.

    I'm honestly not a fan of discussing race on predominantly white sites...so, I'm done with this thread after I post this...but I wanted to respond because, you're right--when you bring this up to white people/in white spaces, you get really clueless responses (even if well-intentioned...but it makes perfect sense for them to not really know about this, so I'm not saying that as an insult) and you deserve at least one that's not that.
     
  5. Destin

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    I'm white, but I had to take a philosophy/humanities class recently where the professor spent nearly the entire semester on race theory so I've become pretty well acquainted with this on an academic level. Your original post sounds almost word for word like one particular thing we learned about which is probably what's causing you to feel this way, I'll try to explain hoping you might be able to overcome it easier if you know the cause. There are three types of racism that build on each other, arranged in a pyramid structure. All three are subconsciously built into everyone's mind while they're growing up through hundreds of small things that just seem normal, but actually are damaging minorities self-esteem one tiny piece at a time over their entire life.

    The first one and top of the pyramid is 'biological scientific racism' which is the most straight-forward. It's when people openly claim one race is superior or worse than another because of some biological trait, which may or may not even be real. For example the most common one is people claiming that black people score lower on IQ tests therefore are biologically provably not as smart as white people. In reality, this isn't true at all and the reason for the lower scores in the studies which caused this dumb theory is that the studies were using an American IQ test on tribal Africans who had never seen anything like that before, so of course they're going to score lower on a test they have no experience at all with compared to white Americans who grew up taking tests like that all the time. For Asians, an applicable one would be the whole 'they all look the same' stereotype which unfairly devalues an Asian person's uniqueness automatically or the 'they're all good at math' thing which makes any Asian person not good at math feel like they're somehow defective when they aren't.

    When the first level is proven incorrect, people fall back on the second level, which is cultural racism. This is when people say 'ok, maybe their biology isn't different, but I still don't like them because their culture is inferior, more primitive etc.' like when people unfairly automatically assume the Hispanic family that moves in next door is going to be loud and annoying because Hispanic culture is unfairly seen as loud and obnoxious by many white people. This is also where most of the hundreds of small things that damage self-esteem come in. My professor was black, and he used a real example from his childhood I had never thought of. You know how on picture day at school, kids are given combs to comb their hair before taking their picture? Apparently those combs only work for fine-grained hair which is the type white people have. So he was given a useless comb for his hair type and when he saw everyone else being able to use it to improve their appearance except him, it made him feel inferior because of his race having a different hair type. It was just a comb - but it was a symbol of how everything is standardized to what works for white people culturally with no consideration for what works for other races, which is a form of racism.

    The last level is called metaphysical racism, and it's a completely subconscious thing, which is what makes you want to feel white instead of Asian. When a culture is proven to not be inferior culturally or biologically, people need a new thing to latch onto, but they don't know what else to pick. They know they don't like a particular race but can no longer find an actual reason why they feel that way, they just know they dislike that race or feel bad about being that race. You mentioned you've always grown up learning pale is good and dark is bad, but why? Is there a single reason why pale skin is actually better than dark skin? Nope, you only feel that way because it was programmed into you and everyone else from birth. Your feeling of wanting to be white isn't real, it's an artificial desire placed in your mind by growing up in a white society. The only way to overcome this is to stop allowing the brainwashing to work and no longer compare yourself to people of different races. If you're Asian, then be proud of your Asian characteristics instead of trying to change them into white ones. Yes you'll be judged by other people still, but when they see you and others being proud of looking the way you do they'll start to slowly move away from the brainwashing of it and will see you as more attractive for being who you are instead of trying to be like them, and will be more accepting of it over time.
     
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  6. Destin

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    It does or did exist in Europe recently too. Northern Europeans are lighter skinned and were historically seen as better for a very long time (British, German, Nordic etc.) while Southern Europeans are darker skinned and were historically seen as not as good (Italians, Greeks).
     
    #6 Destin, Jun 12, 2018
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  7. quebec

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    Steve FS.....I've been reading a lot of your posts since you came back to empty closets. I'm glad that you did...you have a lot to contribute. I don't know if @Destin's post helped you, but it sure made a lot of things clearer to me. Like Destin I am a white, anglo-saxon man. Without knowing it or understanding it I have benefited from a lot of white preference in my life. Then three and a half years ago I finally accepted that I am and always have been gay. It was about six months after coming out here on empty closets that I had a very sudden realization. I was actually a minority. I was driving at the time and I had to pull off the road to get myself under control and to think it through. I didn't quite have a panic attack, but it was close. It was a feeling that I had never experienced before...and at first...it wasn't good. I was actually afraid that someone could reject me, bully me or even hurt me just because of who I was. I had become so much happier after accepting myself and finally destroying that evil secret that I had carried for so long. Now I was suddenly afraid that instead of finally becoming a whole person that I was actually much less of a man because I was gay. I can't really describe exactly how I felt, but I don't think that I have to tell you much about what it felt like as you have likely felt this way for most of your life. That moment of understanding has changed my life almost as much as accepting my sexuality did. I still understand that I am a minority, but over time I have been able to become proud of who I am. I know so much more about myself. I have looked deep into who I am and why I feel the way I do. Almost every LGBTQ person does this to one degree or another as we realize that we are not like everybody else and go through that terror called "Coming Out". No straight person will ever know what that feels like...what it takes to tell the world that you are different in a way they still mostly do not accept. So Steve...I won't say that learning to love your "Asianess" will be easy or that everything will get better or that one day you will be a proud guy who just happens to be Asian and gay. But I will say that from one gay brother to another that I love you as you are even if I never meet you. I don't care if your hair is black or white (I think you'd look hot with white hair :old_smile: ) I don't care if your short or tall, I don't care if your good at math. None of that makes any difference at all. What is important is who we are inside. Sorry for rambling on so long...but your post hit me square in the heart.
    .....David :gay_pride_flag:
     
    #7 quebec, Jun 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  8. fadedstar

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    Not saying you're definitely wrong, but the reverse was also definitely true at one point.
     
  9. fadedstar

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    The point of my first post wasn't to discuss the ins and outs of history but to point out the very modern and very real culture clash between European and Asian cultures regarding skin tone.

    Just because someone views themselves a certain way it doesn't mean others necessarily share that same view of them. Different demographics have different priorities with regards to many things including beauty standards.
     
    #9 fadedstar, Jun 13, 2018
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  10. gravechild

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    Let's put it this way: statistically, white people are a minority of people living on earth. That means there are a lot more people of color who are gay, but because they might live elsewhere, or in cultures that are more homophobic, we don't see much of them. And while I've never wanted to be white, chase after them, etc. do come from a culture that imports actresses, models, and other media figures from across the world, like France, when most of the citizens are indigenous or mixed with indigenous. Apparently, no one sees it as an issue.

    You say none of the POC you talk to are gay, but that can't include EC. Apparently, Seattle is a white dominate city (70%), but Asians are one of the largest minority groups, so why not search out groups for them? There has to be at least one, that even if not geared specifically towards gay Asians, still increases your chances of meeting someone sharing the same circumstances. After all, your longest relationship is with yourself, so you owe it to do everything possible to make that person happy.
     
  11. Steve FS

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    Hey guys. Thank you so much for the responses. I want to make a more detailed comment but I'm not at my computer right now... I'll wait until get home, haha.
     
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  12. Steve FS

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    I think the one thing I have to work in is acceptance. Not just accept myself for who I am, but accept that there are people out there that may not like me for something that I cannot change.

    And you're right - me being different does not make me less of a person. I just feel that way because of gay standards or something. I just have such a self-hatred for this that I just cannot accurately explain. It's like I want caucasian people to want to be me, just like how I've wanted to be them for the longest time. It's the greenest, darkest envy that my mind can sum up, and I hate myself for it.

    That being said, I am a huge advocate for healing instead of focusing on hurting others, so I know this feeling cannot be a part of me. It eventually has to die and leave. I just hope it leaves sooner rather than later so I can move on with my life! lol
     
  13. Steve FS

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    Asians are considered the bottom of the totem pole with Whites and Hispanics at the top. I'm not sure why. I'm pretty sure penis size is thrown around there somewhere, though.

    This doesn't just exist in gay culture, though. Asian heterosexual men are also considered the least attractive among racial groups (I watched a ###### videos on this. I can't quite remember from where though).

    In any case, I feel like this kind of mindset may have just been taught by my parents, and that's why I value paleness so much. My mom is very white and people in my family call her beautiful, while they make huge fun out of the dark ones that hang out in the sun for too long.
     
  14. resu

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    I'm Indian-American, and my parents are from South India where people tend to have darker skin. "Colorism" is a big problem in India itself, where skin whiteners are common. I think one challenge for gay men is that gay culture overemphasizes "good looks", which gets conflated with the broader cultural stereotypes of light skin and stereotypically Northern European features (light hair, light eyes).

    Skin color has nothing to do with good or bad; it is just a biophysical trait originally related to UV radiation protection.

    While I have fortunately avoided overt sexual racism, I do know that my appearance is a challenge when I did use an online dating service and did not have pictures at first (mostly fear of being outed). It was quite strange and sad that [white] guys would be really interested in the content of my written profile and then clam up when I sent pics. Eventually, I just stopped fearing and put pictures, which did significantly reduce the number of responses, but eventually guys of all ethnicities would respond, and it was really good to make friends with other POC.

    I don't think there is a perfect solution, but one thing I have noticed is that exposure to different-looking people is important: many of the mutually interested guys have lived/worked abroad. I realize now I was so lucky to grow up in a relatively diverse suburban area where quite a few of my (mostly straight) classmates are in interracial relationships. Moreover, there is research showing same-sex marriages are the most likely to be interracial (thought still only ~20%).

    Ultimately, it's important to remember it's not your fault these inequalities exist and you just have to work harder finding the guys who are more open to looking beyond ethnicity. It can take work for white people to recognize their privileges and biases, but those that do expand their dating pool (which for LGBT people is already small to begin with). Focus on taking care of yourself and what you can control. Look for other gay Asians even just as friends so you don't feel alone.
     
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  15. DRobs

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    I've always found Asian men attractive.

    I went to High School in the Chicago suburbs that had a large Asian population. So much so, that I used to be able to tell where someone was from (China, Japan, Korea, & the Philippines).

    I had a Psychology professor in college in Minnesota, who on the 1st day of intro to Psychology, asked if anyone in the class could tell him what his ethnic makeup was. I raised my hand and correctly identified him as being Chinese. He was surprised as most youths from Minnesota don't meet or have friend with people of other cultures,

    Two of my straight friends I grew up with, married Asian women. Working overseas I get to hear of all the inappropriate Thailand stories from co-workers (white Americans). Many of my American (white & POC) co-workers are married to Filipino or Thai women plus have houses in those countries.

    What am I getting at?

    Love yourself as you are. Learn that you are attractive. Learn self-esteem. I had to learn those things myself.
    Don't let others and outside influences tell you that you are not attractive.

    You are a good looking guy.
     
  16. D Artagnan

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    I'm really surprised to hear this. In the circles that I've always been in, Asians have ALWAYS been considered hotties. And that's from both a straight and gay standpoint. I know many straight guys who are really into Asian women and I know that in the gay community Asian guys are VERY desirable.

    Personally, I've had several crushes on people from multiple races.
     
  17. smurf

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    What you are feeling is hard to pin point because the racist messages and the colorism that you have experienced are EVERYWHERE. Its very similar to homophobia in the sense that no one has to tell you straight up that gays sucks, but you just start getting the messages because they are institutionalized.

    I think most minorities in the US go through this. Specially second and third generation kids.

    For me, surrounding myself with other LGBT latinx people has been live saving. Being able to be with people who understand your journey has been completely liberating experience. Granted this might be way harder depending on where you live, but look around if there are groups around your area for different ethnicities/races. There will be other LGBT people in there so try to find each other.

    For what is worth, you are far from the only one that feels that way. It takes a lot of effort to unlearn all the crap that we have been taught, but its so worth it.


    Fetishizing a racial group is some of the most dehumanizing thing I have experienced. I have had guys that are "really into Hispanics" but what they really are into is the stereotype of Hispanics being "spicy and exotic" or "good lovers". Its incredibly hurtful.

    For example, if you ask most straight guys that are into asian women why they like them so much they are going to be hyper focus on their perceived femininity, submissiveness, and passivity. And for the most part gay guys into asian guys will also focus on the exact same thing. They rarely see people for their full humanity
     
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  18. Euler

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    I think this has to do with two things: 1) the surroundings and 2) you.

    1) Humans have a subconscious need to belong and feel they belong. One of the most obvious way to feel belong is to look like ppl around you. This works even if we are talking about clothes. Whites are still the single biggest ethnic group in Seattle so it's fairly natural that your subconscious reference group is the white male.

    I know white ppl who grew up in non-white countries and as a kid wanted to look more like their peers. Growing up closest friends were not white but middle eastern and I remember wanting to look like more like them since I was the only white guy in the group and it sort of set me apart (besides their own little secret language). Looking back, one of the funniest memories I have from those times is when I was in this middle eastern party with my friends and some guy came to talk to us in their language and 5mins into the conversation he asks me why I'm so quiet. Obviously I didn't understand the question and my friend explained him I'm not middle easterner and I don't speak the language. I felt pretty good that moment realizing that maybe how I look was more in my head and less in the real world. Maybe it didn't actually matter to them (although they pretty much universally hated my fellow country men for various ridiculous reasons). Now-a-days how I look compared to my non-white friends doesn't really bother me so much anymore.

    2) Is there something in your personal history that makes you feel outsider? Perhaps it is your history that makes you feel that you are not good enough as you are. Maybe you felt excluded for whatever reason in the past. If I were you I would try to look into the reasons why you feel inferior and excluded.

    Some ppl are telling you that it's the society and its various degrees of racism that make you feel inferior because of subconsciouss hidden messages that it sends. I wouldn't put too much weight on that for 2 reasons:
    1) those theories are unsubstantiated at best (no actual empirical evidence to support it) and outright false at worse (proven wrong)
    2) focusing on external causes is a distraction from the real causes that are internal. It is all about need to belong and your own self-esteem. How is your self-esteem in general?
     
  19. Shorthaul

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    I hate to cast stereotypes, but generally people from Asian countries are considered to be smarter and hard workers. To be honest any one I have worked with or went to school with from Asia did far better in school, even trade school. I feel bad because I do not remember the exact country his family came from, but a classmate I had in mechanic school was a genius, kind of surprised he wanted to go to a tech school and not someplace like MIT.

    I am also a bit lost on the fit part, I have limited interaction with people of Asian heritage just because of the areas I have lived, but those I have were in a lot better shape than nearly all the white people I know.

    Personally I would rather date someone fit like Bruce Lee than Whitey Mcdudebro body builder.
     
  20. blogger100

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    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    I can somehow relate. I am black and when younger I many times wish I was white, and nowadays that I am in my 20s and I look back I feel it was mostly because of the media. My local media (mostly tv) is all about white people, as hosts, reporters, on tv ads and so on, and back when I was a kid I think I used to see white as being the default for everything. I can't tell you exactly when that changed but I just grew out of it I would say in my teen years.

    Love yourself and be comfortable being who you are and people will notice and you will notice.