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Easing Into Honesty

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by SevnButton, May 1, 2018.

  1. SevnButton

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    My participation here on Empty Closets and the help you all have given me has helped me to see how badly out-of-whack my life has become. It started a long, long time ago with being uncomfortable with the truth about my sexuality and choosing to just be quiet. Then, since my wife is not good at handling money, I started quietly saving money without telling her. It just got easier and easier to keep one more little secret. Last week I realized I was sneaking into the house with a few groceries because it was easier than facing my wife's anger about me going to the grocery store. Pretty messed up, huh?
    My wife knows about the savings now, and she's really hurt about the secrecy. The trust between us is damaged. She said now she doesn't know what other secrets I have. She said she doesn't know whether I'm having an affair with a woman. Then she tried to lash out at me by saying, "Or in your case, a man". But you know what? I am SO much more OK with myself because of all the honesty and help here on Empty Closets, her comment had no impact.
    So here's the pickle I'm in now: Being here on Empty Closets has been SO important in my healing, but it's another secret. I'm gonna have to work this out.
    Here's another great big THANK YOU for your posts, honesty, and general participation here on this site. You've made a positive difference in my life, and surely in many others.
    =Sevn
     
  2. smurf

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    That is so fantastic! I'm with you with the honest party. Because I had to become a completely different person to survive, I got REALLY good at lying. So good that it just became effortless. It was easier to maintain a web of lies than to be honest and deal with consequences. Its also toxic as hell. This is also the place where I first started being honest so I feel you.

    Congrats on your journey!

    There is a difference between a lie and secret. There is definitely a blur line, but think about it like Alcoholic Anonymous group. Many people going to the meetings have to hide that they are going to them to some people in order to be able to keep using them as a safe heaven so they can keep healing.

    EC is tricky because the public can see it. If you tell your wife then she could very well get on here and try to figure out who you are, which would then take this space away from you.

    Its a tricky balance because you don't want to lie to her, but there are ways that you can be as honest as you can. You can tell her that you are a part of a support group for LGBT issues, but you aren't ready to share the name or how you use it. That would only work if she is ready to respect that though.
     
  3. SevnButton

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    Thanks @smurf ! This really helps me: " There is a difference between a lie and secret. There is definitely a blur line,"
     
  4. Choirboy

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    My ex wife has mountains in common with yours, and my experience with her is that she tends to dump secrets and privacy and deception all into the same bucket, even when they are really very different things. I'd allow yourself the privacy of a place where you can vent or share without it coming back to you in a way that's very twisted to fit the current narrative or disagreement. My transformation over the past 5 years has had as much to do with self-respect as it has orientation, and allowing myself some privacy and distance from her has been important in that. I can also tell you that at least for us, she has grown far less manipulative and demanding the more I keep a line between us. My German relatives used to say "good fences make good neighbors", and I've seen some truth in that. We talk almost daily and share many details of our lives, but I give myself the control over what is shared. It helps. A lot.
     
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  5. SevnButton

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    Thanks so much @smurf and @Choirboy ! You really helped me to see that it's not only OK, but good and maybe even necessary to stay on Empty Closets. Yes! There's a difference between secrets and lies. And the risk of a secret is that it can lead to lies in order to keep the secret. I'm not going to do that.
    =Sevn
     
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  6. Chip

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    I can agree to a point with what Smurf says here; I think the AA anology is an apt one. But I'd also caution you; the truth is, one can lie by omission (not telling someone they're going somewhere for support) or by commission (directly lying about where they are going.) But both are lies. And among spouses in a healthy relationship, authenticity is the foundation of the relationship.

    Now... in your case, it doesn't sound like a healthy relationship, and it also doesn't sound like your wife is very supportive of authenticity. So in these circumstances, I think it is justifiable not to mention EC, but the warning I give you that goes along with that is, because of your history, to be very mindful of your tendency to be inauthentic to avoid conflict, and to rationalize your reasoning for doing so. Ultimately, complete authenticity is important, but my guess is you are slowly moving in the direction that this relationship is probably not the one you want to be in (in the long term) for a variety of reasons. If that's the case, then rebuilding authenticity is less important than ensuring your own needs are taken care of.

    I hope that makes sense and helps.
     
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  7. quebec

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    SevinButton.....I kept secrets from my wife for years too. Mainly that I was gay....pretty big secret. Of course I had pretty much kept that secret even from myself for a very long time. When I came out to her and in other conversations after, I have mentioned that I spend time on some websites that help me. After that I have said nothing unless she asks. I consider the time that I spend here on EC as something that is very personal, very private. I think that everyone should be able to have something that is private, even in a long-time very committed relationship...we will be married 40 years on July 1st. To me empty closets and a few other private activities that I have are not secrets...they are...well, private. I decided after I came out to her that if she directly asked me about EC or if I masturbate (we don't have sex), that I would be honest and tell her. I don't think that she really wants to know. She has been so incredible as we have worked through all of this for the last 3+ years that I don't feel that I should make her uncomfortable unnecessarily. So that's my take. Some things are not "secrets" they are just private.
    .....David :old_smile: :gay_pride_flag:
     
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  8. Nickw

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    Sevnbutton

    When I came out to my wife, I told her I had been in some on line discussion groups and that I didn't feel that I could discuss my conversations with her. She, completely, agreed. Her reasoning was that it was not any different than a confidential conversation with a friend. She wouldn't even think about getting in the middle of that. We give each other the privacy we each desire. I think that's healthy.

    Keeping savings accounts from your wife speaks less about honesty than it does about a relationship where you need to manipulate her behavior. This is a matter of trust. Relationships that lack trust need some work.

    Have you come out to her now? Her comment seems curious that you might be having an affair with a man. This seems like a bit of a stretch from a secret savings account.

    Nick
     
  9. SevnButton

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    Thanks for your perspective, @Nickw , it helps. One of my wife's pushbuttons is that she really hates to be left out, so it will be difficult for her to accept that I need privacy in this space. She's also an extremely in-the-moment person, so things like savings don't come naturally to her.
    Immediately after we were married I came out to her, and even talked about it in counseling. I hadn't yet leaned to be confident with my sexuality, and I didn't like the direction our counselor was taking us,so I kind of tried to sweep it under the rug for a couple of decades. Turns out you can't put the genie back in the bottle!

    Right now, my participation on Empty Closets is a secret. Much like an AA meeting, as @smurf pointed out, for now that's OK because it is healthy and helpful. Some day I want my participation here to be merely private.

    As @Chip points out, I have a tendency to be inauthentic in order to avoid conflict. I'm learning that I can be authentic, loving,and assertive all at the same time, and I'm discovering pride in being Sevn.
     
  10. SevnButton

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    I reconnected with a high school school friend. Early in the email conversation he told me he was gay. Last week I asked a guy at work about what I thought was a foot problem -- he told me he had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. With both of those people,they were genuinely authentic, and it strengthened our relationships. There's the lesson for me.

    I've always had this tendency toward privacy. Even in my childhood there were things that I elected to keep private. I don't think the privacy has been a problem, but the inauthenticity that grew out of it is.

    I have this notion that I'll share some little private thing with only one person, and that will build a connection between us. For example, right now no one in the world but me knows why I chose "SevnButton" as my name here. I hold back for fear that I won't fit in, or that people just won't understand.
     
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  11. quebec

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    Sevin...Boy do I understand how you feel. There have been so many things that I just never told anyone for fear that I would be less in their eyes. Of course being gay was the biggest, but next on the list was OCD. I always been hyper-organized, even as a kid. As I grew a little older I thought it was a reaction to my parents divorce and a step-father that was a disaster for me...just trying to control what little I could in my life. Nonetheless, I went out of my way to hide it. I used to say that I did those things to keep busy. I felt I had to be busy all the time...that was the hyper-activity secret that I also tried to keep. My organization helped in my job and my wife didn't mind that I wasn't a "messy" man. Later on I understood that I really did have OCD, as many little things that I did and never, ever told anyone about became more and more evident. The hyper-activity helped me in my job as a HS teacher...I always joked that the kids couldn't keep up with me. Today those things seem like the weren't really that bad, but until I accepted that they were a problem and got help I was actually terrified that someone would find out. After I was diagnosed - my wife didn't know that I went to a doctor about these things - I told her about them. This was about a year after I had come out to her. She was....oh yeah you always been a little like that, but when I told her all the things that she didn't know about she cried and asked me why I hadn't let her help me. That was the moment when I really understood the power that secrets can have over you. I had been so happy, relieved and set free when my huge gay secret was killed. I just hadn't then realized that any secret can cause depression and self-hate when it controls what you do and what you say. As I said in my other response to this thread, I do have things that are private. I have made a kind of "rule" for myself as to private things. If my wife honestly feels that it is important to ask me about something that I think is private, I will say; "that's kind of private, but if it's important to you, I'll tell you". If I will not tell her under any circumstance, then it's a secret. A secret that I need to be rid of. That works for me....I'm certainly not saying that everyone should do this. Just sharing something that I feel was a moment of growth for me! :old_smile: And oh yeah, a little medication and therapy have made a tremendous difference in both the OCD and hyperness!
    .....David :gay_pride_flag:
     
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  12. Maldoone

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    I've replied to you already today, David - then I saw your post here. So much in common. An LGBT group near me, calling themselves 'New Beginnings' (not very imaginative, but it does what it says!), were incredibly helpful to me, in helping me acknowledge me, then talking me through the, probably inevitable, spilling of the truth to my wife. However, getting back on track here, The mention that I was talking to others was too much for her to bear. I don't know if it's because 'it's a secret', or that she doesn't want anyone else's thoughts and opinions driving my life, which directly affects her. But I'm absolutely certain that I can't discuss this with her. Apart from the odd furtive look in my direction if a good looking guy goes by, I do get some probing questions coming my way. Almost as if I'm being asked to give an opinion on the looks of a man, or the way he has dealt with a situation. And I've arrived at the point of this ramble. In my experience so far, the non-LGBT folks I've talked to simply don't understand. It's something that's so far off their radar that it doesn't compute. The 'oh yeah, I don't have a problem with gay people' is a glib retort. So for this, I think, very good reason, EC and my other contacts are a secret I'll keep to myself. I don't have to explain myself here....
     
  13. SevnButton

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    Hey @Maldoone , your post is really good, full of insight. When I was in my 20's, I tried to come out to some of my straight friends, and it just didn't work. It was almost comical the way they tried to be supportive while stammering and saying some really awkward things. If Empty Closets had been around 30 years ago, or even if there had been somewhere to reach out for support, my life might have turned out so differently.

    In fairness, earlier in my 20's I had a dear friend who became a girlfriend, who was straight (as far as I know) but she was adventurous and receptive to possibilities. She may have been the most accepting and understanding of the few people I came out to.

    Your wife sounds a lot like mine. She accuses me of being "controlling", yet she needs to know what everyone is doing and wants to be involved in everything. It bothers her that I have an email account that she can't access. She might not be able to go along with my participation here. But I may have to give her a chance.

    Involvement with Empty Closets is honorable, and I'm proud to be a member. This is NOT a hook-up site, and it is NOT a porn site. The encouragement I've gotten here has been consistently to be honest, and for that I am thankful. No one should have any problems with any of us being on Empty Closets, unless they have to be in control, or they are afraid of the truth.

    =Sevn
     
  14. Maldoone

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    Thanks for your great reply. It's more apparent to me on a daily basis, as the media and entertainment channels bring LGBT more into the limelight, that 'straight' people around be just don't really 'get it'.
    It is a far remove from their ken, and being, and behaving in the 'norm' sexually, I think, is just so standard, that it's really hard to deal with different emotions and reactions such as being gay - let alone gender acceptance (I'm genning up as fast as I can go on this). [I'm a male man, who happens to like male men - not all of them! - and happy with that].
    So, that's why I'll keep this to myself. When I told my wife that the name of the organization I'd been talking to was called New Beginnings, I almost kicked myself. Self-fulfilling or what?! And I ain't ready for such a big change right now. 'Sides, this marriage may, paradoxically, work out...

    There's always hope!
     
  15. SevnButton

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    Even though lots of people just don't 'get it', we need to give them credit for trying. This idea of being accepting and supportive without regard to a person's sexual identity is still relatively fresh in our culture, so it doesn't come naturally to everyone.

    The failure to 'get it' isn't limited to the main-stream, straight contingent. It shows up wherever there's a difference. I tried to open up to a full-on gay friend, and he absolutely didn't get it. His question to me was, why don't I just accept it instead of trying to live a double life? I shudder to think that he would say that I just don't get it.

    So what? Where do I go with that? First, I'm not going to put much (if any) effort into convincing other people, but I also won't accept intolerance. And I WILL pour my energy into things like Empty Closets, where I can say, "For me, the sexual energy is the same whether I'm making love to a man or a woman, and right now I especially think about making love with a man because I haven't done that for a long time.", and someone will reply, "Yeah, me too".
     
  16. Maldoone

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    Yeah. Me. Too

    I think that sums up my agreement with everything you say. Especially the bit about a long time.

    You've said just about the best thing I've heard since I decided to get on and accept what/who I am last Feb (17). As you say : just because I accept it, doesn't mean everyone I know, will. Had a similar reaction from my gay friend...!
     
  17. WilliamHunter

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    Your story is so close to mine. I too found support and acceptance chatting with others online. I did this before I ever tried to be physical. My wife accused me of having an affair with a woman. That made me laugh. I was outed by my grown daughter who was snooping through my stuff. I was glad my secret was exposed. I was so hurt at that time, but now I'm thankful. My ex-wife and I are once again good friends. The family is healed. And most importantly, I'm so happy to be me. It's all a process. Best wishes.
     
    #17 WilliamHunter, May 11, 2018
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
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  18. SevnButton

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    Thanks for the post, @WilliamHunter . "Support and acceptance" -- that's what I need.

    I'm in this stage now where I acknowledge my gayness to myself and on-line, but not to anyone face-to-face. I'd love to go hang out in a gay bar just to connect with other gay men, but I'd be out-of-integrity if I were to do that secretly (also, the nearest gay bar is about 40 miles away). I'm not ready to come out to my wife and face everything that would mean. I find myself questioning whether I really have any gayness in me, or maybe this is just a mental escape from a troubled marriage. Physical attraction to my wife just isn't there - the idea of making love to her is kind of in the same category as mowing the lawn -- if I could get it done, things would be nice for a while. I find myself constantly thinking about being gay. Aaurgh! I'm rambling. I'm churning. Any suggestions?
     
  19. Nickw

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    Sevnbutton

    Only you can decide when it is the right time to come out to your wife. I will say this though. Before I came out to my wife, our marriage was beginning to fail anyway. Keeping a secret this big from the one person I should be able to tell anything to was eating me up. The inability to be vulnerable was affecting our sex life, our day to day interactions and my mood. I was mad at her and she did not know why. This changed when I came out and she accepted me.

    Only you know your sexual orientation. There are times, still, where I wonder if I imagined it all.

    Indulging in a gay life, outside your marriage, may help you understand your sexuality. A lot of guys do this. But, it will make it harder to come out once you disclose this to your wife. So, it is a two-edge sword for sure. I set up a hookup because I just wanted to know for sure. But, I didn't follow through with it. I am so glad I didn't as my wife would have not understood.
     
  20. SevnButton

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    Hi @Nickw -
    I was amazed to read that you have times where you wonder if you imagined it all. Thanks for your post, it's really good food for thought.
    Life feels like a poker game. It's like I have to throw away what I have in order to see if maybe I'll get a better hand. I want to peek at the cards.
    I don't think I need to a hookup, and I don't want one. What I really want is to hang out with some gay men. It's great being understood here on EC; I'd love to be understood in-person. I don't seen how that could happen within my current circumstances.
    Things are rocky between me and my wife. There's tension even about simple things, like where to park the car. Did you experience things like that before you came out?
    I fear that I could take the big step, come out to my wife and take responsibility for the lack of intimacy between us, totally tell the truth ... and then still neither of us would be happy and the kids' lives would be thrown into turmoil. I guess there are no guarantees on this one!
    =Sevn