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For the men on this forum, a question.

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by MOGUY, Mar 24, 2018.

  1. MOGUY

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    I certainly benefit from reading the posts of others on Empty Closets that tell of their experiences. It helps to get reminders that I am certainly not the only one with challenges. I also visit another site and a topic/question was brought up that solicited very interesting experiences. That question is how do you describe your feelings toward your father. How would you describe your childhood? Please understand that in no way am I trying to suggest that all men have same sex attraction only because of a bad childhood. But I am interested in how much of my attraction is due to nature and how much is due to nurture. I certainly feel that it is a combination of both. I hope many of you will be willing to share your experiences on this matter. Thanks in advance.
     
  2. OGS

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    My Father was an amazing man. He worked from home--he was an artist and his studio was in our home--so I actually was much closer to him than to my Mother, despite the fact that I was probably closer in temperament to my Mother. I was fortunate in that my husband and I had the chance to travel with my parents on several occasions and get to know them as adults as well. They were both truly remarkable people.
     
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  3. angeluscrzy

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    My father was a good man but I never felt very close to him. We didn't seem to really have much in common. It's funny, all my life the only thing we could really talk about at any length was pro wrestling. We always watched together growing up and he had taken me to several events. That seemed about the extent of our shared interests. A lot of my teen years were spent back and forth between my parents because I was skipping school, getting kicked off the bus, basically doing whatever with a devil may care attitude. Also was in several short term psych facilities, and one for two years from 15-17. All those things just kinda furthered the emotional distance between my Dad and I. I learned to be more independent rather early and he wasn't able to really be there for me. Knowing the man he was, I knew he would've done anything he could for me, but I never liked asking for anything. Anyway, there are so many things about our relationship, little things I can pinpoint that contributed to the lack of emotional bond I felt. I'm trying not to go off on a mind-numbingly long rant.
    Basically, I just worried so much as I got older about if he saw me as a "good man". We had so little in common and we never talked about anything of any real kind of emotional level. My dad never knew the reasons for all my suicide attempts, never knew anything about my same sex attractions. This June it will be 6 years since he died. For the last 3 years of his life we never even saw each other. I lived about 2-3 hours away and I was working a lot, and having a family of my own to take care of. We did talk on the phone once in a while.
    The hardest thing between my dad and I was that I always felt our relationship existed on such a superficial level. We never really had any father-son heartfelt conversations. I barely remember my dad or I saying "I love you" to each other since I was maybe a teenager. This was a big one as well, because I remember him saying "I love you" at the end of one of our last phone calls, and all I could think was how fake it felt.
    It always amazed me that even tho we had so little in common in regards to shared interests, from a moral/ethical/personality standpoint I couldn't be any more like him.
     
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  4. Nickw

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    Moguy

    I come from a huge family. Four of us are gay or bi. Catholic. I have a gay aunt. I had, probably, a gay great aunt. I think my nephew is gay.

    My father is an amazing man. He somehow provided for a huge family on a teacher's salary. We all received college degrees. When my siblings came out, he never questioned them. He just loved them. These days, he is more of a friend than a father. Maybe he always was to me. There was never any abuse in my family...just caring.

    Gay just is. The way each of my siblings was raised and the childhood experiences vary dramatically amongst us depending on our birth position. I have to say, I don't believe it was "nurture" unless that nurture included "acceptance" and learning to be an independent thinker. I would argue that homosexuality may have environmental triggers. But, I don't think our parents "make" us gay.

    Personally, I believe there are a lot more bisexuals out there than anyone would like to admit and something environmentally moves us up or down the Kinsey scale....but this is just my wild ass theory.
     
  5. ANewHope4

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    My relationship with my father is complicated. He currently lives in Russia with his second wife, which suits me most of the time. My Dad was frequently gone while I was growing up, because he believed that he had a “calling” to live in Europe, while my mother no longer could handle living overseas.

    Things came to a head when my parents divorced while I was in my twenties. It didn’t help that my soon ex-wife and Dad hated each other and I was caught having to manage both of them whenever he visited.

    Our relationship may about to shift since I’m now also getting divorced and perhaps understand my Dad a bit better. On the other hand, Dad has also ranted to me that the Western Church in Europe and America is taking an extremist position that alienates Christians throught out the global south (i.e. the “Third World”) whenever we welcome and legitimize LGBTQ individuals.

    He may not take it well when I tell him that his ordained pastor son is schwul.

    I think my Dad means well, but he’s often weird and socially awkward. Even though he’s an American, he insists on speaking to my sister and I in German. He feels a need to stand up for “underdog” Russia and will email long missives that defend Putin. So, there’s that.
     
  6. ANewHope4

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    I will say this about my Dad - he always effusively told my sister and I that he loved us. I don’t think this was something he heard often from his parents.
     
  7. Choirboy

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    Dadwas an enigma. I feel like I probably understand him better than my 3 younger siblings, but there are still many mysteries that will probably go unsolved.

    He was born into a blended family--his father was married twice and had children with both wives, and Dad was the son if wife #2, who also had a child overseas before she came to America. The family was a pressure cooker and there was abuse and discord between the "families". He lost both parents within 6 weeks of one another when he was 25, which sent his "baby sister" into an emotional and physical downward spiral almost immediately. His sister's nurse was my mother, and they ended up marrying almost a year to the day after his father's death. I was born a year after that, and didn't realize until decades later how much he had endured only a couple years before I came into the world.

    I vaguely remember him being very engaged when I was very little, but once I was beyond perhaps 3 or 4, he seemed more distant, His sister (he became her legal guardian) died when I was 2 so maybe that played into it. He was a high school football hero and I think he figured out very quickly that I was "different", since I was very over-sensitive, played dolls with my sister (hardly acceptable in the early 1960's!), got emotional over pretty pictures and loved anything pink. But outside of occasional suggestions about gestures or phrases that seemed overtly feminine, he let a lot of it slide, which is kind of surprising for a working class child of immigrant parents in that era. He tried unsuccessfully to interest me in sports, but had better luck with my younger brother--although oddly enough, he had a much calmer relationship with me than my brother.

    By the time I was a teenager he was clearly unhappy in his marriage and I often wished he and my mom would separate. Every time I was in the car alone with him, I would hear a litany of his frustrations and miseries with Mom, which was hard because my own relationship with her was up and down like an EKG. I think I was his main confidante and outlet. He tended to seem distant otherwise, and I have since figured out that he probably had the beginnings of the circulation problems and resulting constant pain that eventually cost him his legs.

    When I was 24, my mother suddenly died, and he was a wreck and considered suicide. I became a surrogate dad to my "baby sister" in a weird repeat of history. From the time Mom died until his death 25 years later, his health gradually declined, his legs had to be amputated, and for most of that time I was on perpetual call whenever he needed anything (which was daily for awhile). He was gruff and angry and difficult and often terribly unlikeable. But we had a bond, and I heard from other people (NEVER from him, of course!) that he was intensely grateful for all the time I put into his care, and was terribly proud of me.

    I never came out to him--that happened after he died, and I have no idea what he reaction might have been. But he mentioned being propositioned by guys in the service in the 1950's without any shame whatsoever--he almost sounded like he was bragging, to be honest--and believed as most of us did that my sister was a lesbian, and kept trying to subtly encourage her to come out to him. His relationship with Mom was so similar to mine with my ex-wife, and many other little details of his behavior and history were so similar to mine, that I have often wondered if perhaps he was deeply closeted himself. I always thought he looked like Rock Hudson and to this day I look at pictures of him as a young man, and I wonder what might have been going on in his head. Our relationship was difficult, often cold and unfriendly, only rarely affectionate, and occasionally angry. But I always felt a bond with him, even when I didn't want to, and of the 4 of us I suspect I miss him the most.
     
    #7 Choirboy, Mar 24, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
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  8. brainwashed

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    Statistically sexuality (males, have not researched females) on the Kinsey scale (a tool thus not absolute) is pictured as a small "n" (called a bell shaped curve in statistics world) in distribution with not many people at the head and tail, Kinsey 0 & 6 part of the scale. (all of what I am saying is well documented and peer reviewed....this is not my opinion) This specifically means there are a lot of bisexual people who are in the middle of the scale. But because of social taboos, they will not admit same sex attraction(s).

    Statistical distribution on the Kinsey scale is not a "U" with people being Kinsey 0s & 6s, 0 being absolute hetro and 6 being full on homo. Generally nature does not work that way - a U. Nature distributes "things" (generally) as "n".
     
  9. Nickw

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    My "theory" is that the Kinsey scale is the measurement of something that occurs in nature. That we are measured on the Kinsey scale but that rating moves up or down the Kinsey scale depending on a combination of environmental and genetic modifiers. ie We're all homosexual, to some extent, and we can't control where we are on the meter. Just a wild ass theory. But, to MOguy's question...I wonder if a relationship (good or bad) with a father could provide that stimulus? Overpopulation? A really really hot guy...short beard...tight ahh...oops off subject again.
     
    #9 Nickw, Mar 24, 2018
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  10. brainwashed

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    Getting back to the original question. "That question is how do you describe your feelings toward your father. How would you describe your childhood?"
    I was always trying to be close to my dad. But he was generally always cold. This is normal for his generation, this fact is mentioned in the book Coming Out of Shame. Lol, his reaction to me always seemed to be, "fuck I should have worn a condom." (I was a recreational sex baby.) I would dream up activities that he liked just so I could possibly get close to him.

    I had a great childhood except the only person who gave me love was my mom - very controlling person. Even though there was an extended family, no one got close to the "strange" kid - me. (in another post I suggested that I was treated by others like I had fleas or lice and thus people avoided me.) My fortunes ended when I initiated homosexual behavior towards another 14 year old fellow (very hot) and my mom knew "something" went down. (I never told her, I was 14 and deathly afraid of her.) Thats when she tore into me and would not stop. Her anger was on par with the eruption of Mt. St. Helen in WA state. This is what I call the beginning of abuse phase, mid teen years. Then I kept chasing guys my age and thats when I was sent to a "special school" to basically put me on a more acceptable curse in life. Massive abuse occurred at the "special school". (I still have nightmares and flash backs about it.)

    In a nut shell, basically came out of the "special school" cured of my desires for guys. So in summary I do not think I had a great childhood.
     
  11. 21zephyr

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    I feel my sexuality is more biologically than environmental, but having said that, I’m a classic environmental even though I don’t believe it’s the major factor in my sexuality.

    My father is the nicest person you could ever meet. He is kind, funny and accepting. When I was younger we didn’t have a close relationship, it was a good relationship, just not close. He was 42 when I was born and I suppose I resented having an older father when I was young. I loved sports but my dad wasn’t interested so he never came to my stuff. When I graduated college my dad became the most important person in my life. I finally matured and realized how amazing he was. He is now suffering from Alzheimer’s and it’s tough to see him struggle- but I always visit him and enjoy the time together.

    My mother is a dominant, borderline personality disorder, evil lady. Even though I understand her mental illness, it is tough to take her abuse. She was physically and mentally abusive to my sisters and me. I was beaten weekly as a child and called a sissy and a fag if I cried. When I was four I was scared of thunderstorms so she locked me in my room during a storm while I screamed in terror. She would shame my body to others, in public, and because of that I very self-conscious. I still struggle to use public restrooms. I have some pretty embarrassing stories that she shared with others while I was going through puberty.

    I’m the middle child with three older sisters and three younger sisters. I had no males, growing up, to talk to or share stuff with other than during sports. That was tough because I knew I was gay, but had to keep it inside.

    I came out 6 months ago to a dozen or so people, it was terrifying, but at 52 years old it was a huge relief for a lifetime of hiding. I’m hoping to have my first gay relationship in the near future and look forward to my first gay kiss. Well, that just felt like a good counseling session, thanks!!!!!!!
     
  12. PatrickUK

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    Deep breath time...

    my relationship with my father always has always been complex (for want of a better word). He's in poor health now and increasingly frail, and since my mother and sister died I have had to take on a bigger role in his life. In some ways this has brought us closer together, and I'm grateful for that, but there is, and always has been a certain distance and disconnect between us. We really are totally different people and have little in common. Conversation is often difficult - characterised by long, awkward silences.

    I remember as child how stubborn and short tempered he was and he could be needlessly overbearing, but he was also capable of great love and affection. For me it was always very confusing and I never quite knew what to expect when I spoke to him, so I often didn't. Many times I felt as though I was a disappointment to him as I constantly rebelled against his ideas for my life and it probably cemented the divide between us, that I haven't yet pulled back.

    Over time I've come to realise how my father is a product of his own upbringing in a strict home and I have been able to mould my view of him as a result and make a lot of allowances, but I can't alter the fact that we just have nothing in common. Even so, I continue to look for ways of bridging the gap. I know he loves me and he has mellowed a lot with age. He (surprisingly) didn't flinch when I came out as gay, even though it shattered his idea that I would continue the family name and it was a great joy to me that he came to our wedding three years ago even though he was really struggling with his health on the day.

    I began with the words "deep breath time" because I knew how painful it would be to write all of that. I do feel quite awful about it because I really do love my dad, in spite of everything. That's what makes it even more complex.

    I've read so many chapters about the disconnect between gay men and their fathers and how it often stems from childhood and it's always hard reading. I think there is a lot of truth in what is written and I do think gay men pick up the vibes very early on... long before we fully understand or come to terms with our sexuality.

    Nature or nurture? I won't even go there, because it is what it is and I think we need to do our best to put in a bit of personal work to overcome things. It is hard though and I've only managed to go so far with it myself, but I haven't given up. There's a lot I want to say to my dad and I will say it before very long.
     
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  13. angeluscrzy

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    I agree with making some allowances for our parents upbringing. I learned as I got older that my Dad was a "change of life" baby, the youngest of 6 kids. His mother had mental health issues, and didn't seem to show much regard to him. He spent his youth bouncing back and forth between siblings.
    I figure this may explain some of the lack of emotional bond between us. It wasn't something her grew up with really.
    I think it is beyond wonderful that you were able to come out to your Dad. Even more so, that he was able to attend your wedding. I will always carry this sense of remorse within me, knowing that my Dad died and we never really knew each other.
     
  14. YermanTom

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    My (soon to be former)wife describes my family life growing up as nauseously perfect, a 'Brady bunch' family.
    Generally my childhood was typical and uneventful. I was a very average child in a very average school, living a very ordinary life.
    My relationship with my father could only be described as excellent. He was encouraging without being pushy, I could always talk to him and discuss any matter. Even though he was someone that held his views quite strongly the discussions that we had were always reasoned and respectful. Even as a small child my opinions and feelings were always listened to. A family pattern is that we will all hold and defend our beliefs strongly but if proven wrong we will change those beliefs completely.
    As an example I remember when I was a young teenager I discussed taking up smoking with my father. He smoked a pipe. We talked about the good and bad aspects of smoking and he let me make my decision on the matter. I have never smoked because I understood that smoking was addictive and I also understood why I wanted to smoke, (to fit in etc.).

    Growing up I never met a gay person until I was in my mid 20's. This was after I developed my first 'mega crush' to be honest it was more like unrequited love. Up until that time I always assumed that I would meet a girl and get married. I was always bemused by passion and intensity other lads had about women. Most of my teenage life I had no concept that a man could desire or fall in love with another man. So when I developed feelings for a guy it was shocking and I found it very hard to figure things out.

    So in my case it was very much nature over nurture.
     
  15. Patrick7269

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    I also have to take a deep breath before writing this, as my relationship with my father has given me some of the biggest challenges in my life. In short, I don’t think these challenges contributed to me being gay; I think that was biological.

    When I was little my dad was away at work (as a railroader) most of the time, and when he was home he was usually tired or unable to focus on my brother and I. I remember a number of fights he had with my mom, and in retrospect, understanding his infidelity, I can completely understand why. At the time I just knew an atmosphere of anger and fear. There were many physical altercations and threats.

    In my mid childhood and teens, my dad was physically, emotionally, and unknown at the time - sexually - abusive. My mom divorced him when I was 7, and after the divorce my brother and I would go visit during the summer. Although we had good times, the atmosphere in his home during his second marriage was also very tense, very angry, and full of fundamentalist religious condemnation. Despite his religious condemnation of others, he was molesting his step daughter at the time. We would know nothing of this until many years later. My brother and I came home from several of these summer visits with bruises and mom threatened his custody rights. At the time I didn’t understand the gravity of this, and he was still my hero. I couldn’t wait to go see him.

    My late teens and early adulthood were marked by emotional abuse. He accused me of being in a cult because I’m gay, he refused to meet anyone I dated, and he simply never visited. Looking back I can see that he stayed in my life because of my efforts, not his. When he wasn’t abusive toward me as a gay man, he was simply ambivalent that I was his son. I guess at the time I was young, resilient, and naive. Looking back it’s painfully clear.

    My dad died from cancer when I was 37, and his last actions toward me were abusive. He gave me an ultimatum to “choose between being gay, or him”, knowing that I had been out for 15 years, and that I had accepted myself. He refused to give me heirlooms because he didn’t want them potentially going to a “stranger” (i.e. if I were in a relationship) in the event of my death. After his death I found out that he gave away the only things he had promised to give me, his drawings.

    I simply can’t put into words how much I hate my father. I can’t put into words how much I regret him, how much I regret the time I lost trying to please him, and how much I regret the loss of myself. I truly hate him.

    Unfortunately I don’t have very good relationships with men. They’re either characterized by distance, by lack of intimacy, by lack of commitment, or other problems. Because of my dad I probably don’t have a lot of skills relating to men in a healthy way. However, I don’t believe that my father trauma led to me being gay.

    Patrick
     
    #15 Patrick7269, Mar 25, 2018
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  16. 21zephyr

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    Patrick,

    I feel and share your pain. I only wish you the best and hopefully you can come to terms with your father, possibly through some therapy.

    My father is amazing, my mother was the abusive person in my family. Her brother molested me when I was 10 and she still lets him in her home. It’s been 42 years since it happened, but she has a better relationship with him than she does with me. She beat me, shamed me by taking my clothes and having me stand naked in front of my sisters. There are so many other stories, but that’s not my point. All my life I just wanted my mother to love me. I suppose I still do, but I am slowly realizing that will never happen. She loves me one day and destroys me the next. Through counseling, I have dealt with things a little better, but like you, I will always have tough memories.

    Our childhoods weren’t healthy, but we can find that love from someone else. I’m only out 6 months, but I hope to find someone who is kind and truly loves me. I want that for you, too. We are gay for whatever reason, but we are human and have the need to be loved and accepted. I hope we both find someone kind and we can both put our difficult past to rest because we deserve to be happy and fulfilled!!
     
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  17. Nickw

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    Patrick

    I'm so sorry that your father treated you this way. No one deserves that. Especially, a child. The most important thing a parent can do is to protect their child. It's sort of the job description. When they neglect that basic duty, they deserve our scorn. I know that you understand this on an intellectual level. "It is not your fault". Sometimes we need to be reminded of that. I hope you find a way to develop relationships with men in a healthy way. You are not your father. We all have seen this here.
     
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  18. Patrick7269

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    Thanks Nickw.
     
  19. KnucklesNation

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    My Father was absent throughout all of my childhood, but I still had, I guess what you would call a male influence in the house. I was into girls up until puberty and soon the feelings towards women faded.
     
  20. Patrick7269

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    For those who went through trauma as a child, I’m finding some interesting resources online. If you do a web search for “effects of early childhood trauma” or similar, then you may see some things that help.

    In the U.S., a framework for scoring childhood trauma was developed called “Adverse Childhood Experiences”. This Centers for Disease Control (CDC) study found a relationship between various kinds of childhood trauma and challenges into adulthood. If you search for “CDC ACE study” I’ll bet you’ll find plenty of information.

    If we broaden the scope of the question a bit and think of LGBT rejection and/or a missing father figure as a specific example of these ACE traumas, then the correlation is striking I think. For example, numbness and inability to identify feelings is a common adult symptom found during the study, and it fits my situation and has always baffled me as to its origin. I’m going to research this study more from an LGBT perspective and apply it to my life.

    Patrick