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Are there different "types" of gayness?

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by justaguyinsf, Mar 21, 2018.

  1. justaguyinsf

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    A recurring struggle that I have is the dissonance between my sexual attraction to other men and gay culture in general (e.g., drag shows, pride parades, the celebration of promiscuity, the White Parties, the shunning of men with conservative values, hatred of religion, etc.) This disconnect, combined with my occasional attractions to women, often makes me think that maybe I'm not actually gay, but that I instead have situational or fetishized attractions to other men that I tend to focus on because of my lack of confidence around women. It also makes me long to find a gay man or men with whom I could identify--i.e., a role model--that I often think might help me resolve my disconnect. So I'm curious whether anyone has any thoughts about whether there are "types" of gayness that might include mere fetishizing of other men as an overlay to otherwise heterosexual attractions. Are there just some "types" of gayness that include a desire to embrace with gusto gay-male culture in its current and predominant form?

    Thanks, folks!
     
    #1 justaguyinsf, Mar 21, 2018
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  2. Richard321

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    Just my opinion, but "Gay Culture" is an all encompassing term and includes all that are gay - so, it will include all diverce individuals and all groupings. Many gay people won't be a part of or feel an affinity to any grouping within it.
     
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  3. greatwhale

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    Perhaps it might be helpful to define culture in the larger sense; as in, "culture" being a set of common beliefs and values that are shared among a group of people united by national, institutional, religious, or other commonalities. These groupings may or may not be voluntary for its members, that is to say, one is either born into them or joins them for professional or personal reasons. People who share sexual orientations, specifically those in the minority, can definitely be understood as such a grouping.

    Now, we have this thing called sexuality. We humans have this curious need to justify or label highly variable (as in, across a wide spectrum) desires and inclinations over which we have little or no control. We have this desperate need to call it something definite, or one could say, we have a need to somehow explain the unexplainable and affix some label onto it; as if a single word could even begin to describe what it really is. Hence, by this magic spell of a three-letter word (poof!) we are gay!

    Let's look at the larger culture, the so-called straight culture (if such a thing exists). Is there not a fetishism of sexuality and promiscuity on a grand scale? From porn to advertising, is sex not a fundamental element of our Western society's obsessions? Sure there are drag shows and pride parades that are specific to the LGBTQ set, and these certainly can be soaked in excess (although all of the pride parades I have attended are pretty tame, by most standards), but that very excess is what draws disproportionate attention, whereas the vast majority of LGBTQ individuals are rather ordinary (at the very least, this has been my experience).

    It behooves us to be mindful that the LGBTQ community, such as it is, is also part of the larger society in which it dwells. As far as I can observe, the excess I spoke of above is certainly not the exclusive domain of this community.

    You are sexually attracted to other men, why go any further trying to reconcile the irreconcilable? Sex and culture often intermingle, but that is not exclusive to this community; why not live with the contradiction between what you feel and what you see on the surface of this community, and make your own path through the maze? Why not create your own culture, and find those who agree with it?
     
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  4. justaguyinsf

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    Good point. So I guess one might ask if those who identify with mainstream gay culture have a different "type" of gay sexuality than those who don't. In a similar vein there have been a fair number of online stories about men who identify as straight and who are in relationship with women but who occasionally have sex with other men. Are these guys just in denial or is there something qualitatively different in their sexuality as compared to the true believers or "gold star" gays?
     
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  5. Richard321

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    Maybe there are degrees of gayness... Well, there is the Kinsey Spectrum of 0-6.
    And maybe there are degrees of acceptance.
    So, one has their position on their spectrum.
    And then there is acceptance or denial of this position on the spectrum.
    As far as I can see, this is the case.
     
    #5 Richard321, Mar 21, 2018
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  6. I'm gay

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    Someone may "identify" as straight, but that doesn't mean they are. Whatever their motivations, whether it be denial, fear, some form of self-hate, or just-don't-care attitude, a person's true orientation may or may not be truly uncovered if that person's conscious ego demands they identify as straight.

    Regarding the "type" of gay, I think it's too easy to identify the "gay culture" by its loudest elements. Events such as drag shows, gay parties, bear get-togethers, and other social events get the "gay culture" label simply because they are the well-known events, publicized, and talked about. No one publicizes two guys who go to a movie together and hold hands in the theater. No one writes a review about a nice date to a local restaurant. And no one talks about the group of gay people who went to the rock concert together. But these things are just as much "gay culture" as the drag show and pride event. Why then do we only label the loudest and most visible things that gay people do as "gay culture?"

    I've enjoyed going to the occasional drag show. I spend a few hours in a gay bar or nightclub maybe once every couple of months. I attend our local pride event each summer and march in the parade. If these are the only things that qualify as "gay culture" then I suppose I'm not much into gay culture either. Or perhaps it's all bullshit. I'm a gay man. Whatever I do that's cultural to me is in fact gay culture.
     
  7. Nickw

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    Isn't this bisexual? That's how I identify. But, there is also the predominantly straight and situationally gay and all sorts of other labels. So, I think a "gold star" gay designation is not really appropriate. I will say that my attraction to men, my "gay sex drive" is as high or higher than men I know who identify as "gay". But, that's for a particular type of man. I find my "type" ridiculously attractive to me. But, the vast majority of men...yawn!

    I think we need, as a society, to stop trying to pigeonhole sexuality.
     
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  8. OnTheHighway

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    I personally do not align my sexuality directly with gay “culture”. My sexuality defines whom I am attracted to, it does not define whom I am as a person, whom I socialize with nor what my personal beliefs or thoughts are. Sometimes I am aligned with mainstream gay culture, and other times my perspectives are the opposite to what mainstream gay culture may suggest. I have found my own place within both the gay community and heterosexual community that works for me.

    But more importantly, I have found myself as an individual. I define whom I am, what I believe, how I act and whom I associate myself with.

    Mainstream gay culture helps provide support, guidance and a sense of belonging. On the path towards self actualization, I embraced gay culture, but I appreciated when my personal progress required a degree of separation from such culture just the same.

    As you try and find the right balance, do what feels right to you.
     
    #8 OnTheHighway, Mar 21, 2018
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  9. OGS

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    I think in the end the divide is less about sexuality but how one views it and how comfortable you are with it. The fact of the matter is I'm pretty conventional, other than being gay. I've slept with one man faithfully for the past twenty years. I'm much more likely to spend a Saturday evening cooking and watching TV than I am to spend it out dancing--if we're feeling particularly rambunctious maybe we will stop by the farmers market first. I've never even tried cigarettes let alone anything more illicit. I have a degree from a Divinity School. Our standing social appointment is Sunday brunch--which I think of as terribly gay, but not exactly flamboyant. But, yeah, I've been to more than my fair share of white parties. On the rare occasion I do drink I'd much rather go to a gay bar than a straight one. And yes I love Pride--gone every year but one for 25 years.

    In the end I think what makes it a community is if you choose to commune with it. When I meet another gay person my immediate thought is "oh, OK, he/she is one of ours." And frankly I search out and find other gay people just about anywhere I go. Now I will say a lot of the gay men in particular that I encounter nowadays are other almost middle-aged married gay guys like myself. But if you're a 23 year old party boy or a 70 year old who just came out my default thought is still "oh, OK, one of ours." That to me is what community is built on--not just gay but any community.
     
  10. justaguyinsf

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    Thanks all for the great and thoughtful responses. I like the concept of making your own path and not investing in labels more power than they deserve. In practice however it seems one can go too far in that direction and become almost a community of one. One needs fellowship after all. It's confounding to me that I am not at all drawn to find it nor even know how I would do so at this point within the gay community. That's why I wonder if there are different hard wired gay temperaments that might be analogous to other differences in temperament. Perhaps it's ultimately a question that can't be answered.
     
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  11. justaguyinsf

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    Very apt comments ... and also illustrative of my disconnect as I would never seek out gay people purposefully nor have I ever thought "oh he's one of ours" upon meeting a gay person. Makes me think that I'm not actually gay even though the vast majority of my sexual fantasies and experiences have been with other men.
     
    #11 justaguyinsf, Mar 21, 2018
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  12. 21zephyr

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    I doubt anyone fits in a category definition. We are all unique- gay, bi or straight. We may prefer some activities over others, we may be more open in some areas and conservative in others and our definition of sexuality probably varies with age.

    I am gay- I haven’t been with a man, but I know I’m gay because I want to have a relationship with a guy both physically and emotionally. I have been in relationships with women, enjoyed their company and had pleasurable sexual relationships, but I know I’m not straight or bi. I’m 52 and I have always known I wanted to be with a man even though I haven’t.

    I am not flamboyant, but don’t care if someone else is. I wouldn’t dress in a leather thong and march in a Pride parade, but I want to attend a Pride event to meet other gay males. I’m not interested in a drag show, but if I had a partner who was, I attend with him. In my mind I don’t care about being a top or bottom, I just want someone who treats me well and we can be intimate.

    Even though I have denied or hid my sexuality, I’ve always known I’m gay and I pray I get the chance to find someone. After all I’ve been through- I’ve always known at the core of my existence, I was gay.
     
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  13. RavenTheRat

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    I think instead of being different ‘types of gay’ there are just different types of gay people. Some will participate fully in ‘gay culture’, some only a little, some not at all.
     
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  14. justaguyinsf

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    So if one is a nonparticipant and is criticized or shunned by those who participate is one still gay? For myself the answer seems to be no.
     
  15. 21zephyr

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    I look at “gay” as who I am. There is definitely gay culture out there, where I fit into that I really don’t know. Others might define me by this culture, but I’m gay because I like guys. Because you participate in something “gay” doesn’t make you a better gay. My sexuality is only defined by what happens between my partner and me. Right now this partner only exists in my mind.
     
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  16. justaguyinsf

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    So apart from gay culture or identity are there "normal" or standard sexual ways that being gay is expressed. 21zephyr makes an interesting point about being gay while having no experience with another man. Even so it seems that certain sex acts are expected of gay men such as oral sex ... If one doesn't generally enjoy that except with someone who they feel emotionally attached to do they still qualify as gay?
     
  17. greatwhale

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    My partner and I frequently joke about having our "gay-cards" revoked if we act in any way "straight"; we would then solemnly refer to a breach of Section 26 (b), par. 4, of the CFGR (Code of Federal Gay Regulations) if we let hair grow (or not) on certain body parts... :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    In the realm of affections and desires, we have labels that are either useful, or not. Coming to the conclusion that one is gay grows out of an acknowledgment that one has certain sexual attractions and desires more or less consistent with what other people have observed, and have referred to as "gay" (or all of the other letters in this category). Nevertheless, it is important to remember that this word, as all words, is an abstraction, it is not reality, it is the menu and not the meal...

    I refer to myself as gay because it is a useful shorthand for generally describing my sexual inclinations, but how I practice this particular proclivity, and how it feels to me is something much more difficult to express. I may have some expectations of myself and others regarding particularly "gay" activities, but these are tenuous at best and subject to revision as I live that experience in real time with a real person.

    The particular aspect of sexuality is that it must, of necessity at some point, involve another person, someone who also is experiencing more or less the same sexual desires and inclinations, someone who also may have some vague pre-conceived notions of what is "expected"...and then it happens: two people take the chance to find each other in intimacy,...then reality takes over, and sex, in its essence both messy and sometimes awkward, gives us a chance to discover both ourselves and the other person, without abstractions, in a realm that can only be experienced in the heat of the moment.

    There is such a thing as sexual competence, by that I mean that I find it useful to know and practice certain sexual techniques, not because these are expected, but because I find that they elevate the basic sexual act to a higher level; into the realm of the sublime. Very often, these techniques are of the so-called "Tantric" variety. This "sublimation" of a basic biological function means deliberately taking the long way home; the goal of final release is consciously delayed because the journey can be far more interesting than the destination. This has several advantages, not the least of which is taking the time to do things with intention and with full consciousness. Moreover, it is in fact an excellent way to practice safer sex, because the excitement is kept heightened yet under control.

    Must emotional attachment precede sex? I'm not so sure...as so often happens among gay men (in particular), sex will precede everything else. Is that a problem? I don't think so, mainly because the abstract separation between sex and emotional connection is too definitive. The sexual act, and the way that it is "performed" (for lack of a better term) need not merely be to scratch an itch...that first sexual encounter with the right person can be so much more than that, it can be akin to a revelation. There are numerous long-term couples that I know, or know of, who started their relationship after a one-night stand; in a sense, this turned out to be part of the dating rite of passage, and an important one.
     
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  18. OGS

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    I think this one is a stretch. I mean by this token I'm not gay or at least haven't been for a couple decades. Stupid husband! Making me not gay. And I really enjoyed being gay. Dammit. Of course if this is the new standard half of my gay male friends aren't gay--or at least aren't any more. So I guess at least I'll have company...
     
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  19. SiennaFire

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    Here's how I think about it.

    Saying that I'm gay is a statement about my sexual orientation, namely, I'm attracted sexually and romantically to other men. I find it preferable to homosexual and all its overtones. Embracing the scene is not a requirement of being gay.

    I'm definitely not into the scene of gay culture nor do I let it define who I am. Having said that, I do enjoy sampling the scene in small doses - weekends in ptown/ogunquit, marching in pride, etc.

    The gay community / culture is a confederation of subcultures, such as "party bois", "muscle", "leather", "formerly married to women", "gay dads", "suburban gays", "log cabin republicans" et al.

    Part of coming out is figuring out which subcultures work and won't work for you. I've found my personal intersection, primarily "formerly married to women", "gay dads", and "suburban gays".

    The bottom line is that each of us are in control of defining and living what being gay means to us.
     
    #19 SiennaFire, Mar 22, 2018
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  20. Choirboy

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    My high-school age daughter knows lots of kids who are here and there along the spectrum, and she says that a lot of them prefer the term "queer" because it doesn't carry the same connotations as "gay". Words can have a certain unwanted charge to them; ironically for me, "queer" is one of them, but I'm 40 years older than she is and grew up in a vastly different era. But I was uncomfortable with "gay" at the time myself, because it felt to me that declaring yourself gay seemed to imply that you were taking leave of the people and lifestyle you were comfortable with, and being absorbed into a completely different culture with its own unique standards, neighborhoods, values etc. I remember that feeling vividly, and while the desire for kids was what generally ended up weighing the scales in favor of not coming out, the whole gay community/culture thing was always a sticking point. Plus, I KNEW gay people and felt comfortable around them, but there was a very clear and rather condescending vibe that it would be very hard for me to fit into their lives, since I was pretty far from their idea of "acceptable". Fast forward 30+ years and I still have some sense of that, particularly around certain subjects, although I'm secure enough now that I really don't give a shit whether I'm "acceptable" or not, and the "gay community" really doesn't play much of a role in my life, in a large part because my life is jam-packed right now, and honestly, I just don't see my life lacking in anything at the moment that the community could really offer me.

    I get a lot of what you're saying, @justaguyinsf . What I'd advise, though, is don't try to judge what you feel inside by the actions, opinions or culture of others who give themselves the same label, but use it to mean something very different. I'd love it if there was a less clinical word than "homosexual" or one less loaded with assumptions about lifestyle and opinions than "gay", but that and "queer" are basically what we've got to work with at the moment. Don't try to somehow talk yourself out of being "gay" just because the representations of "gay" that you see are not ones that you identify with. 25 years ago I married a woman who I believed in my heart that I loved more deeply than anyone I had ever met. Now, after 4 years with my partner, when I compare the feelings I had for him at the start and have now, against what I felt for her, it's very clear that this is not something that I could have talked myself into, and my feelings for other guys are something that comes from deep within. It's far too much of a visceral reaction than anything that could be decided by your mind. The fact that you or I have only a passing involvement or interest in a gay community is irrelevant when compared to who you actually ARE inside.

    I'd say be open to things, but know yourself and be who you are. Openly. You are more likely to find people to identify with in the world at large than in a subset of it. If I were to look for introverted conservative semi-religious dads within the self-identified gay community, the pickings would be slim. But if I were to look for introverted conservative semi-religious gay dads among the general population, there are a lot more than you would expect. You can build your own community in a lot of ways. It beats feeling that you're somehow limited just because you like guys, and the word for that is the same one as a community you're not really personally invested in.
     
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