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why most gay and straight advices about sexual orientation bring more confusion?

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by dudette, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. dudette

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    I am sorry, but I have to ask this question because it just blows my mind.
    why when you ask gays about sexuality "I am confused about my sexuality" type of question they seem to always answer in this way that there might be a possibility of being in denial (almost like schizophrenia type of denial "what is real? what is illusion?").
    And when you ask straights about sexuality "I am confused about my sexuality" type of question they seem to always answer in this way that it is just a phase or misunderstanding of sexuality (sometimes it can go as far as it is 100% straight to find guys sexually attractive).

    The question which are paradoxical are:

    1) crashes towards people or just some kind of romantic feelings
    gays:- it means good friends
    straights:- it is just a phase

    2)sexual fantasies
    gays:-they can be just an illusion
    straights:-it is just a phase

    3)erotica or pornography
    gays:-it doesn't mean anything or they can be just an illusion
    straights:-it doesn't mean anything or it is just a phase

    There are more examples but now I don't remember them by hard. My point is that how come gays and straights advices on this subject tend to be paradoxical?(you are asexual, but asexuality is impossible, but you are asexual to me, but it is impossible to be asexual to me).
    How is it possible for a person to know their sexuality (according to gays and straights) if everything what indicates sexual orientation is for gays just an illusion and for straights just a phase?
     
  2. OGS

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    I think it's because in the end it's sort of silly to think that someone else can tell you what you feel. So people start to wonder if you aren't feeling things fully or truly. Put another way: if it's not a phase and you aren't in denial why do you keep asking?
     
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  3. Chip

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    Schizophrenia and the denial mechanisms of early stages of coming out are completely different. The stages of loss are a way of processing the 'loss' of the self we've identified as straight, and Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, who identified them, found them as a common mechanism for processing all types of loss.

    People who say "it's a phase" or "it's an illusion" or whatever aren't competent professionals and have no idea what they're talking about. There's no evidence I've seen to support any of that, so why give energy to it?

    The asexuality stuff is a huge, huge clusterfuck, thanks in large part to Tumblr and AVEN. Prior to those folks screwing things up, asexuality was recognized, based on decades of sound research, to be rare, pretty black-and-white, and not a big deal. But then people started to mistake emotional issues that impact vulnerability, which, in turn, impacts sexual attraction and arousal for hardwired sexual orientation, and made up dozens of unrecognized labels that have zero research, study, or credibility among anyone credible in the field.

    So in short... if you are looking for information from sources that are basically full of crap, you're going to get crappy, inconsistent, unreliable information. If you instead look at credible sources based on research... you're a lot more likely to get reliable information. The sooner you toss the ridiculousness out of your research process, the better off you'll be.
     
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  4. dudette

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    But there is one more thing which makes me wonder. Lets agree that AVEN research (sexual fantasies =/= sexual orientation) is BS. I agree, lets leave it at that.
    However, I have managed to come across some "heterosexual" research which indicates that being sexually aroused by male genitalia as male is 100% straight (I am not talking about shemale porn, but just guy looking at another guy's genitalia like guy looking at woman's genitalia), what do you think about it? Is this true or it was just some amateur research?
     
    #4 dudette, Mar 20, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  5. Chip

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    If you can post the research citation, I can take a look at it. Offhand, it sounds bogus but I'd want to see the methodology of the study in particular and read it in full before commenting.
     
  6. dudette

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    I managed to find this. There are more videos and studies about it, but the point is that these studies always say shemale = straight (yea I agree) and penises on men = straight (well I am not sure, is it gay to like dicks on men? the video says no)

    http://www.yourbrainrebalanced.com/...raight-me-are-aroused-by-erect-penises.14923/

    There is also the video (the study) (the video also talks about shemales, but also about guy looking at another guy's genitalia 8:00-9:00)

    also the comments on this threads are like

    "Good video, it just confirms a lot of what i've experienced with other mens reaction around penises especially when its erect.
    Personally i've always found them a turn on but never met a guy who I'd want to kiss, so i've always been comfortable with it as a fetish and never really worried about been gay."

    my point is this as a person who was told many times "it is just phase or illusion" I did my own reshearch and I found out this
    -LGBT forums (like EC): crashes towards guys or just some kind of romantic feelings = good friends and no gay
    -heterosexual forums (like that one): penises are not gay
    -Q+ forums (like aven, there are actually more Q+ forums): homosexual fantasies are not gay

    These three are the best parts which I find guys the most interesting, but ultimately there are not gay (it is something that people who are not sexually attracted to guys experience all the time). What do you think? To be honest I think that there is a lot of misinformation about this subject.
    also do you see the point that straights, LGBT and Q+ bring more confusion than help?
     
    #6 dudette, Mar 21, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  7. PatrickUK

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    The one thing that stands out for LGB people is that we go through a process of questioning and introspection and we confront issues that relate to our sexuality. We struggle with the internal dialogue and put in lots of self work to find appropriate and meaningful answers, even if it takes a long time and causes us some real pain. We don't accept dismissive or disingenuous ideas that it's all a phase or bit of a kink/fantasy when we know differently, and we don't attempt to suppress or deny things behind the banner of asexuality or myriad other labels. The one thing you can say about most LGB people is that we actually go on, or we've been on a journey and wrestled with different feelings and emotions to confront the real issues and to that extent we are quite knowledgeable. Now that's not to arrogantly suggest we know it all (I wouldn't do that), but in my experience the LGB community is more open to a thorough understanding.
     
  8. dudette

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    I mean I now understand why LGB forums like EC says that "romantic attraction =/= sexual orientation" because of this
    https://forum.emptyclosets.com/inde...e-to-have-kids-in-hetero-relationship.468944/

    Also I understand why Q+ says that "sexual fantasies =/= sexual orientation" (lets not go into that because I think it was mentioned so many times by @Chip and other EC members that Q+ is BS that everyone gets it by now)

    But then why heterosexual community says that "arousal by body parts =/= sexual orientation". I mean are they in denial or is it actually true?
    I mean is it possible just possible that everyone likes penises, no matter what sexual orientation? (penises are so Sexually-Over-Powered that even straight people cannot resist them)
     
    #8 dudette, Mar 21, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  9. PatrickUK

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    What do you think about that? Doesn't that statement strike you as rather reductionist? It's a very crude analysis of a much more complex issue... it sounds like the sort of thing I have heard a few boorish straight guys say.
     
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  10. smurf

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    You really can't think that everyone on EC thinks that same thing. I for one completely disagree with Chip when it comes to the difference between romantic orientation and sexual attraction. I don't care for his defense that "studies" haven't shown it yet, but its a hopeless fight so I never say anything.

    Its a complex thing.

    Genitals don't equal gender. So if a straight guy likes women with penises then he is still straight, yes. Some might use it as a "stepping stone", but many genuinely like penises on women. Its that easy. What the truth is for each person has to be determined by each person and their own experiences. You cannot make general blanket statements.

    The study of human sexuality is sooooo young. There are still a lot that we don't know and things that we will find out along the way.

    I think your struggle to get one single truth to your issues is going to drive you crazy. There is no textbook or the real truth out there for you to find. You have to work on yourself, learn who you are, and come to the conclusions that work for you.
     
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  11. dudette

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    Yes, but there are things about sexuality which are just bizarre.
    How is it possible that
    a person who identifies as asexual says: "I identify as asexual because of homosexual fantasies".
    another person who identifies as straight says: "I identify as straight because of homosexual fantasies".
    another person who identifies as gay says: "I identify as gay because of homosexual fantasies".
    another person who identifies as cheeseburger-sexual says: "I identify as cheeseburger-sexual because of homosexual fantasies".
    I read on so many forums people who describe their sexual orientation the same way, but they identify completely differently, how is that even possible?

    I also noticed that for some reason people say that "they know that they are this sexual orientation because of erotica or sexual fantasies or noticing this or that gender, etc." For some reason a person would choose one small detail about the whole concept of sexual orientation (things which identify someone's sexual orientation) and say "yes this is the most important thing for me in order to identify as this or that orientation". I don't understand it to be honest.

    Actually I read about these gays/bis on forums who realized later in his life that they are gays/bis just because they get aroused by male genitalia, and then I read on another forum about these straight guys who said that getting aroused by male genitalia is just a fetish. (the same thing but different conclusion).
     
    #11 dudette, Mar 21, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  12. smurf

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    Its just like anything else in life. Your perspective and experiences shape our perception of our selves. Just because there is not one single answer doesn't mean that all of them aren't true.

    Sexuality isn't a set thing. Its a behavior that humans do that we try to conceptualize, organize and define. But sexuality and the definition of actions change based on the person, their believes and the culture that they were born in.

    Take for example religion. How do we have thousands of different Christian denominations out of the interpretations of one single book? Who is to decide which denomination is the "truest" one?

    Or take the United State Constitution. How do judges interpret different meaning from the exact same words they are all looking at?

    The same thing applies to sexuality. Same actions, same thoughts, but depending on who you are you will interpret them differently. Is that a good thing? Who knows. The important thing is that people can come together and take meaning to their experiences and apply them how they best can to their lives.

    This is a perfect example. Both are correct depending on the person. What you are missing is the context of each individual. Is not like the person made a decision about their sexuality based solely on this one question. They just used this piece of information among the hundreds and even thousands of pieces to come to their own conclusion.

    Also, and this is not directed to you but I think its a disservice not to say it, being attracted to trans people is not a fetish. Trans people are not here for our consumption as things to excite us and entertain us. It would be like saying that someone attracted to people with abs is a fetish. I get that its said as a "fetish" because its an uncommon thing for many people because we don't talk about it, but it can be incredibly dehumanizing to people to be referred to as just a fetish.
     
    #12 smurf, Mar 21, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
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  13. Chip

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    Ah, the guys who wrote "A Billion Wicked Thoughts". I read this book when it came out. It started out interestingly enough, but degenerated pretty quickly. While they made some citations early on in their work, as the book continued on, they made all sorts of completely unfounded assertions, many of which, as sources, they cited things like "This person says so-and-so" and acted like that one person's opinion was scientific fact.

    So basically, absent any (credible) evidence, I think we can relegate this claim to the dustbin.


    Because, basically, they're all using bogus definitions, or bogus tests/resources/guidance, or no definitions/guidance at all.

    Because some people (actually, sadly, a lot of people) either buy into anything they're told, have a complete lack of critical thinking skills to discern what's truth and what's BS, and/or simply are unhappy and looking for some excuse or label that allows them to hang all of their problems onto.

    See what I wrote above. Same thing.

    You seem to be talking in circles, asking the same things over and over, and I don't think you need to be. I think you are way overthinking all of this, and relying on basically random chatter from people that couldn't talk themselves out of a paper bag. If you eliminate all of the crap, and I think, if you think about it, you know what's crap and what isn't, what remains is pretty clear.
     
    #13 Chip, Mar 21, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  14. SkyWinter

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    Interesting topic. I'll add my two cents.

    I think everyone has the capacity to recognize attractiveness in the opposite sex regardless of their sexuality. For example, I've known gay men who still admire breasts. I also think everyone has the capacity to become sexually aroused around people that don't match their self reported sexual orientation. An erect penis is a clue to everyone that mating is possible and you might want to get in on this.

    Add to this the number of straight people who at least have something more than just an emotionless recognition of the attractiveness of the same sex. For example, a woman who isn't just commenting that a woman she sees is beautiful aesthetically, but also sexually. Sometimes this is overt, and sometimes it's a bit more subtle, but there is some sexual attraction there.

    I think we can also look at the number of gay/bi/etc people and see that it's only around 5% that self report as gay/bi/etc. This might account for why straight people think "it is a phase" because perhaps they dabbled just a little bit in same sex attraction/flirtation/sexual fantasies, but beyond that they consider themselves straight and wouldn't go further than dipping their toe in the water. So to them, someone openly questioning to a straight person about whether or not they are gay, would be met with "it's a phase" because that is their perspective. You are on land 99% of the time but sometimes you stick your foot in the water and then pull it back out. That's a phase. Not a state of being. You haven't plunged fully into the water.

    As for what looks like contradictions, I think this goes into the issue of acting on your fantasies. One guy might get aroused at another guy's arousal because it is a clue for him that mating is happening, but he doesn't want to have sex with that guy, perform sex acts on/with that guy, or is in any real way sexually or romatically attracted to that guy. On the other hand you can have a guy who gets aroused by another man's arousal because he does want to have sex with that guy, or perform sex acts on/with him, and would be interested in a sexual or romantic relationship. If you are a man and you have sex with another man, and you enjoyed it you are almost certainly gay. However, some people have the thought that they want to have sex with men, but either can't or don't act on it. They are in a committed relationship, or they are still questioning, or they are just playing it safe in terms of STD's.

    From my personal experience that's one of the reasons I'm not jumping on every penis I can find. Cause a lot of guys are gross and manipulative. Especially in the hook up community. I'd rather not get an STD and be sexually unsatisfied than the other way around.
     
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  15. Shorthaul

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    Because fantasies are just that, fantasies.

    Same reason porn is a terrible way to judge a person's sexuality. Porn is created to fulfill a fantasy, it is designed to excite the viewer and that is all it is going to do.

    I have day dreamed about sky diving, but trust me when I say I will never, ever jump out of an airplane. Hell, I won't willingly even get on a damn plane in the first place. I am sure everyone at one point has fantasized or day dreamed about something they would never really do outside of their own head.
     
  16. dudette

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    yea, but consider this

    sexual temptations are also not good indication of sexual orientation since sexual temptations are just that, temptations.
    (I have heard that also from some people)