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General News At least 17 dead in Florida high school shooting

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by AwesomGaytheist, Feb 14, 2018.

  1. Niagara

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    Oh, cool, I also like History quite a bit :slight_smile:
     
  2. KyleD

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    Unfortunately it's not a very marketable area to go into hehe.
     
  3. idsm

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    And it's not just that! Imagine 3 or 4 teachers having a gun in a school under attack. They haven't had the time to communicate between them to know exactly who is the attacker (for all they know, the attacker could be one of them). They are in a room full of screaming people running around, tripping, falling down wounded, while shots are being fired (probably from several directions) and they have to a) identify the threat and b) aim and shoot *successfully*. Every missed shot can cost an innocent life instead of saving it.

    More guns equal more damage. Bearing a gun only gives you an illusion of safety.

    People (in general) tend to fear vague things and disregard the things that they can actually see and touch. We always think that the "bad guy" will be a stranger and not a neighbor, friend or even family member that we 've known for so long. And yet stats are proving this to be wrong.

    It's almost funny, but how many of us are actually afraid to be in a graveyard? Dead people are certainly more harmless than living ones!!
     
    #43 idsm, Feb 17, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  4. EnderGiven

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    Yes, I'm sure people are dying because I, a minor, sit here and argue politics with a random someone on an lgbt forum. The problem is not in the guns, but in the criminals. The system needs to keep criminals instead of letting them go early one probation. Criminals do NOT follow laws, so by creating MORE laws, you want to stop criminals who won't listen to the laws from getting guns. All it will do is keep people who follow the law vulnerable to those who don't. The gun does not need to be possessed by a teacher. They could just as easily bring in a police officer or a veteran to protect the school.
     
  5. EnderGiven

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    I appreciate your input and thank you for your understanding. You make a solid point. But the point I was trying to make is, if someone trustworthy, checked by the government and approved by the state, is in possession of a gun, that would deter criminals. The gun wouldn't even have to be loaded, and it wouldn't even have to be a gun. They could use a Taser and still get the job done. I was only trying to say that there needs to be better protection at schools. Does that make sense to you?
     
  6. idsm

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    How many trained guards do you need to secure a 3000-student school? How many schools are there in the USA? How much is all this going to cost? And who is going to pay for it? Didn't Trump get elected under the promise of cutting taxes? Aren't all these contradictory?

    How many other developed countries have no gun control laws? How many other developed countries have armed guards in the front door of schools? How many school shootings have there been in those countries? Is there a correlation between the difference in the stats and said restrictive laws?

    There was an argument before about gun control not being about stopping "criminals", but about preventing crime committed by "non-criminals" (eg. killing someone after a heated argument or shooting your girlfriend/boyfriend for cheating on you). Actual criminals are a different demographic and of course additional measures should be taken about them. You never responded to that.

    Also:
    interesting link
    interesting link 2
     
  7. Flynn S

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    Sure, but it sounds ultimately militaristic to me. Not somewhere I'd like to send children, not somewhere I'd like to go myself. We all seem to be toying with the concept of 'safety.' Essentially to me it seems you are arguing mutually assured destruction. I get it, it worked in the Cold War. But it's also based on the assumption that neither party wants to lose/die. You seem assured that someone armed with a weapon - a gun, a taser (which has a limited range), etc - "would deter criminals." Theoretically, yes, it should. But so many of those criminals - the ones who commit mass shootings - are mentally ill and quite a few of them kill themselves when they are done. So would the threat of their own death mean anything to them? I'd say probably not.

    Schools are already built like prisons. Most, if not all, already have security guards. There's also the issue of training. Depending on who you consult, it doesn't seem we have a very good history on that front. Cops have made mistakes and ended up killing unarmed, often innocent people. I can't imagine the number of mistakes that would happen if we had armed guards in every school. Hyping up security on such a massive scale, as idsm pointed out, would be both costly and confusing. It might work in the short term, but long term? Probably not.

    I agree, I do think there should be better protection at schools, but I don't think that necessitates arming more people. I think one of the things we ought to do is get better at identifying the threat before hand.
     
  8. KyleD

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    United States has 5% of the world's population and 31% of the world's mass shootings so it is a problem that is unique to your country. Furthermore, 80% of the guns used in mass shootings in America are obtained legally. As a minor you should not be obsessing about ways of protecting yourself from a mass shooting at school but on furthering your education.

    With so many guns in circulation it is not hard for criminals to get hold of a gun. The purpose of gun laws is to prevent guns from getting into the hands of the wrong people so why would you be so opposed to that?
     
    #48 KyleD, Feb 18, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  9. gravechild

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    What's it going to take? Civil war? We're supposed to be an example for the rest of the world.
     
  10. EnderGiven

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    As a minor with a 4.3 GPA, I believe I can, and will, 'obsess' about whatever I wish. My education has already been furthered, to the extent of the situation. Also, as I stated before, I am NOT opposed to gun laws, only to the fact that it takes such a ridiculous amount of time, and that the state does not allow people who have already passed inspection to protect their children. As I implied in a previous post, the issue is not about guns. Rather, it's about the safety of children at school or at home. I was simply arguing that family's and schools should have the ability to defend themselves, even if they use non-lethal force, and that the government should not force people to pay taxes on their own safety. Wouldn't you agree?
     
  11. EnderGiven

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    I completely agree, and do understand your point of view. I was merely trying to come up with solutions to problems we haven't even found. I might have been overthinking it a little, and I appreciate your calm temper and level head. It's not something you see very often in politics. And you'll have to excuse me, but my family is very conservative, with our dad being one of the 'big cheeses' of the NRA. I guess I was a little irrational in my arguments, as my family heavily believes in second amendment rights being available for the general public.
     
  12. idsm

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    I don't know why you quoted me there, I never second-guessed neither your GPA nor your right to obsess over whatever. I provided a list of university studies that suggest that more guns equal more deaths in any circumstances. I also said that guards need salaries, equipment, constant training and constant mental evaluation. These things cost. And yes, just like the army and police and judicial body that exist to provide safety to a country's citizens, the cost of this added safety measure would have to be incorporated into taxes. I, personally, cannot think of any other way for this to happen.
     
  13. Flynn S

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    I don't think you were irrational. The truth is, we don't really know the right solution. We can throw things at the wall and hope they stick, but until we discover the root of the problem, that's all we will ever be doing. I don't think the lack of gun control is necessarily that problem. It's a problem, of course, just not, I think, at the root of all these massacres. I do understand what it's like to have parents with strong political views. My father and step mother are very conservative. My mother is very liberal. It was confusing for me growing up.

    Your parents are right, we are entitled to our rights, that's why they're written into law. The thing is, though, our Constitution is over 200 years old. Things have changed a bit from what the Founding Fathers might have considered as everyday necessities. That's not to say, however, that we don't still deserve those rights. Just something to think about.
     
  14. KyleD

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    Your lax gun laws is causing criminal gangs in the United States to be able to have easy access to guns and then export these guns to Latin America and the Caribbean and drive the gang violence and murders present in those countries. It's easy for you to argue that it is not about guns but if you are from a country in which over 80% of the murders are committed by guns then maybe you would think differently.
     
  15. EnderGiven

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    The problem would not be MY country's problem, then, but theirs. The gun laws in my country don't matter to other countries.
     
  16. EnderGiven

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    Thank you, this makes much more sense. P.s: sounds like some crazy family reunions, eh?
     
  17. EnderGiven

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    Yeah, that was an accident. It quoted you when I quoted Kyle. Sorry.
     
    #57 EnderGiven, Feb 19, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  18. Flynn S

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    You have no idea!
     
  19. KyleD

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    Most of the guns used in murders can be traced back to the United States so the lax gun laws in some states is the problem. Haven't you heard of the guns for drug trade?
     
    #59 KyleD, Feb 20, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  20. Aussie792

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    This argument is remarkably common despite being extremely facile. This is for a few reasons.

    1. A person's first criminal act can be a mass shooting. That appears to be the case here.

    2. Even where that is not the case, criminality is complex and has diverse causes. Thieves, domestic abusers, mass murderers and those responsible for financial misconduct are all criminals. Understanding which ones are likely to commit a mass-shooting is not particularly simple when it comes to preventing mass-shootings; the profiles of the sort of person who will commit violence or mass-violence are somewhat different. A solution which tinkers around the edges of gun ownership usually falls flat because the lines which distinguish criminals from non-criminals and aren't especially clear, or even if they are, they can be ineffective, difficult to create meaningful policy out of, or both.

    3. When you make gun ownership a fundamental individual right, it becomes quite difficult to prevent gun ownership because a prospective gun-owner might be denied due process. Profiling the most risky buyers based on either demographic profiling or information about individuals held by police could be unlawful while gun ownership is constitutionally protected. And given the problems with protecting against criminality I mentioned in my first two points, it becomes very difficult to meaningfully protect people if you can't profile outside of the judicial system. That means those who are not classified as criminals can generally get hold of guns even where we know it not to be safe. Here again, it is very difficult to meaningfully protect people while the second amendment remains in the Constitution.

    4. Every solution which maintains gun ownership as a right is going to be extremely expensive (eg. domestic surveillance or increased police presence at all schools) and still is likely to miss some of the most significant gun-related problems, such as suicide and domestic violence. A shooter can still do quite a lot of damage while the designated guard responds, responds poorly or if that guard is shot.

    --
    It is not enough to say, given the status quo is clearly failing, that we don't know any solution. It is that we do not know any solution in the United States that doesn't involve repealing the Second Amendment to the Constitution. That discussion needs to happen, because this problem is consuming the US, dragging its living standards down. Out of all advanced economies and democracies, it is a uniquely American crisis.

    Why do I think the only solution is to repeal the second amendment and engage in at least some form of a gun buyback and the sort of restrictions which exist in Australia, Britain or (to a lesser extent) Canada?

    1. The fact that any tailored solution eventually runs up against that impermeable wall that is the Second Amendment, as the complications I raised in my third point above show just a tiny snapshot of.

    2. That the existence of the US military and police forces have rendered its original purpose totally obsolete. Against external threat it is unnecessary, against internal threat it is useless.

    3. Suicide is just as great a problem as violence against others. Guns demonstrably make suicide easier, both because of method availability (how easy it is to try) and efficiency.

    A noose, multiple tabs of paracetamol, knife or razor wounds and jumping from a height take more effort to attempt and are mostly slower in effect and easier to reverse. Taking guns out of the picture reduces suicide so greatly it would be worth repealing the Second Amendment for that reason alone. And there's a pretty universally accepted principle to do justify such a change - it is the same principle by which we deny people the right to commit suicide in attempting to save them after the fact.

    4. When you look at the demographics of mass-shooters, suicide or those who use guns in domestic violence, most have gotten or would have been able to get guns by lawful means.

    The continued existence of a black market when guns are harder to buy doesn't change the fact that your suburban teenage school shooter probably can't get his hands on a gun when it's harder to own one. That is the reason Australia or Britain haven't had mass-shootings for a long time, while still having occasional gang shootings which harm far fewer people. The United States has both problems simultaneously.

    5. Liberty, the word most cited to protect the Second Amendment, is incompatible with being shot.
     
    #60 Aussie792, Feb 20, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018