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Seeking advice (as per a forum suggestion)

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by Titanion, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. Titanion

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    This is mostly copied for another thread, but someone said it would be better off as a thread than a post so I have decided to do so. What follows is my tale.

    But speaking from personal experience, coming out was.....odd. Odd in that no one really gave a damn, I mean aside from a few question to "are you sure". But it was mostly just something like "we kind of knew and it was obvious but we were just waiting for you to tell us". Most of the negativity was directed at me scared to how they would react so to know they were cool with it was disarming to say the least.

    The following after that was, less exciting. I hear talk about being yourself and people will like you for who you are, but when I tried that before all it got me was laughs or people just not wanting to be around me. So I had hopes for being a part of a community that would embrace such oddballs, or at the very least tolerate them. But unfortunately that didn't happen. In my interactions with people I found them to be rather alien, it was rough to be an outcast among the outcasts. I had to tone down or mask parts of myself just to fit in, but the distance I felt inside could not be deceived. These people didn't have a place in society but they have one here with each other, I thought. Unfortunately there isn't a place for me there, no matter how I tried I just couldn't be "gay" enough for them. Couple that with a new self consciousness about my body and how I look naked and well......I think you get the idea.

    Coming out and "being gay" for me wasn't good, is was just the beginning of a performance act. Donning costumes and behaviors to make myself more appealing to others, desperate to feel a part of the world. It wasn't a matter of being myself, but being someone else and trying to keep the ruse going for as long as I could. But in the end, I decided that I would rather be alone and weird than trying to fake it to fit in. It still hurts though, the loneliness. Knowing that I cannot be the real me around others hurts also. But i take solace in cartoons. It's the one place you can be a nutcase and it's funny instead of lonely. A weird colorful world of smiling characters.

    So forgive me if I don't share your opinions about the matter. But it just rubs me the wrong way when I see other people can make it and I have to hide myself to fit in. My interactions weren't hostile with the community, although a few interactions on the apps did hurt a lot. It's more like feeling you belong nowhere.
     
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  2. Choirboy

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    Titanion, I meant to respond sooner since I was the one who suggested a thread, but I'm at work with limited access to EC. Sorry!

    I think that part of the reason my coming out experience as a whole was more or less emotionally painless was that I really didn't have any big expectations. I am a quirky loner who doesn't form friendships easily, and I had enough exposure to gay people and the gay community that I already knew I wasn't going to fit in there any better than I did anywhere else. So I didn't think that I was going to be welcomed in with a unicorn ride and a shower of glitter, and instantly be turning away friends because I had more than I could deal with.

    I can tell you that the years leading up to my coming out were a long period of learning how to deal with people in general in a more positive way. It had nothing to do with being gay or coming out; I was in a job that required more and more personal interaction, and both my marriage and my church involvement were constantly forcing me to deal with people more and more. So I'm quite familiar with the "mask", and with that odd feeling of never really being part of the group.

    What may have been different in my approach was that I accepted long ago that while I do want (and need) some level of social interaction, it has to be on a limited basis and in situations that I can control. I love singing in my choir and can be chatty and social with everyone at choir practice, but I generally make excuses when it comes to outside activities, because without the script in my head, I'm awkward and uncomfortable. I can be terribly witty and knowledgeable on conference calls at work, where there's a very narrow focus of discussion, but I'm a washout at dinners with clients. It's something I have very gradually improved at over many years and with a lot of effort, but I accepted long ago that I'd rather be a relaxed outsider with a very small circle of casual acquaintances, than a stressed-out one who makes himself miserable trying without success to fit in.

    All of this realization and development happened before I came out. I also knew enough gay men to figure out that what's termed the "gay community" has a pretty strong basis in social interaction, and that it would be pretty pointless for me to try and fit in there. That's important to note. I am not condemning the gay community for being shallow or "not accepting me", and I'm not slamming myself for being weird or "not good enough"! I am accepting the fact that interaction and communication and inclusion are different for me than they are for others, and if I wanted to be out and gay, I had to be in charge of my situation, and not blame other people for my own awkwardness.

    So what I will tell you is something that I have shared here before: Use your coming out period as an opportunity to assess yourself, improve what seems worth improving, and accept that which you don't want to change. Don't blame others for your situation if you haven't seriously taken some level of responsibility for it, because speaking from experience, while we can't change a lot, we often can change enough to improve our situation. I'm truly thankful that I had the chance to learn that before I came out, because I had much more realistic expectations, and have ended up much happier for it. I hope you're able to come to some peace.
     
    #2 Choirboy, Oct 11, 2017
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  3. Titanion

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    The thing is that I guess my expectations didn't match reality. I was shocked by how too many of the people I encounter in the "gay areas" of Florida are close to the stereotypes. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it got it into my head that I had to be that way to get anywhere in the world.

    I'm kind of like a turtle when it comes to social interactions. I test the waters a lot and am quite wary about other people. But once I get comfortable then it's no big deal from then on out. It's just the initial hurdle that's so daunting.

    I kind of like my cartoonish ways, even if it's offputting to others. It makes life interesting and such, but I think it's mostly to cheer myself up from loneliness.

    By virtue of my being gay there was already a kind of distance from mainstream society, and by virtue of me not being "gay" I didn't really fit among others in the community. So I'm left out in the cold and just trying my best here.

    I got tired of using the apps. I don't want to be a piece of meat and I don't like the mentality that it started getting me into. But unfortunately I don't know how to tell if another guy is gay or not. But it is painful when I fall for some straight guys, especially friends. I currently go to the gym but honestly that's just so I can ease the fear of being rejected for my body. I'm not fat, but I don't like to look in the mirror at myself. I just see what I lack and how off putting some of it can be.

    I remember trying the bathhouse for a while. Even though it's a cheap "spa day" it's likely just to feel desired. Only to go back to my mirror and not wanting to look. Too many things I point out about myself. I honestly never figured I would be on of those people overly concerned with body image.
     
  4. Choirboy

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    It probably also doesn't help that for a lot of people, coming out seems to give them this instant sense of belonging somewhere, or being the key that opens all the mysteries of their lives. For me, the fact that I was gay deep down was a poorly kept secret and I had several people react as you (I think it was you) described earlier, basically "Duh, glad YOU finally figured it out, WE knew for years!" Where I was fortunate, I guess, is that I did have enough exposure to gay people that I didn't go for years assuming that my lack of social skills and my never fitting in was because I was gay. So I never had that bait and switch of "Now you're gay and you're out....and NOTHING HAS CHANGED."

    What did you do for activities before? Was there some kind of a social life that you could resume, only wearing a rainbow bracelet or something? I have found that as much as people exhaust me, I'm better off spending some time around them or I get far too deep into my own mind. Doing basically anything to engage people is helpful. I smile a lot and probably look like a halfwit some of the time, but I find I have to make the effort to be friendly or I stay in the bubble.

    I will also say that as frustrated as you may be and as impossible as it may seem, fight the urge to be bitter and angry, and maybe try now and then to think of one small thing that you do that might put people off, and work on it. Self-improvement is a great thing to do, and not for the reason you think. I've found that some small improvement, some little goal, actually gives me more confidence and makes me feel more acceptable, far more so that it does to anyone else--but oddly enough, a lot of my problems, and possibly yours too, are self-inflicted from thinking too much and reading more into a situation than there really is. Most people don't over-analyze the way we do, and it's often that obsessive over-analysis that makes them uncomfortable. Take little steps, and don't anticipate a huge change at once, but rather a gradual improvement in your attitude, confidence and sense of well-being.

    I can tell you that in grade school I was the lowest of the low and was either bullied or else completely ignored. It took a lot to work my way up from that, but I did--and now I have an anti-social partner who I sit home and avoid people with, and I love him to pieces. Takes time. But it can be done.
     
  5. SiennaFire

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    It seems to me that you are a shy guy with an average body trying to interact with stereotypical gays with gym bodies in Florida.

    I am the former, and I've learned that the only winning move is not to play that game and change the game to meet people more like me. This requires that we [as shy people] get out there and be ourselves and face the fear of rejection head on because gay dating can be brutal. In order for a relationship to be successful, both guys have to feel the chemistry. If you both don't feel it, it's not a match. This doesn't make you an unworthy person, just not a match for the other guy. While there is a certain amount of performance required during the first few dates, if you have to be overly fake, you're probably barking up the wrong tree.

    Florida may be different, but up north it has been my experience that there are all types of gay guys who hang out in all kinds of places, so the key is to figure out where to look for guys who are like you. I met my BF because after having lame results on one gay dating site, I tried another site based on the recommendation of a gay friend. It's important to build a support network of gay friends through support groups and/or meetups. These people supported me as I came out and offered me advice on how to meet people and other logistical aspects of being gay.
     
    #5 SiennaFire, Oct 11, 2017
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  6. Titanion

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    I didn't really have a social life. I hung out with my brother and sister's friends but that was more out of some sense of pity really than any companionship. I usually just stay home and play games. I don't do much but then again I don't need much.

    I'm at the too deep into my mind bit where I contemplate existence and the lives we live, seeing Albert Camus and the rolling a boulder up a hill. It's weird but cool and kind of scary.

    I'm not bitter, or really angry (mostly angry at myself if anyone). I'm just sad that I pinned my hopes on things getting better if I joined the community, but unfortunately the support groups are filled with the type of people I don't really click with (mostly stereotypes). Again, nothing wrong with that but I have had little success there. Plus I get the feeling that dating in the gay world is like a resume. It's about your prospects and not you, like I said I don't do much but I'm a simple person.
     
  7. Titanion

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    Unfortunately my image of gay guys has been tainted. It's like thinking that being gay only applies to thin or muscular young men, maybe up to 40. After that you are just a creep or don't exist. Like being gay is for young people when the bodies are hard and muscular (pun somewhat intended). Even in the fiction I read that tends to be the case. I know that's foolish and pretty offensive, but it's what I'm surrounded by when I go to Wilton or Miami. SO it just sunk into my mind.

    I actually did, by accident, catch the attention of someone with a gym body. He's nice and all, and we are friends. But we just don't have that chemistry. I think sometimes I force it because of his body, but I remind myself that it will end in disaster if I go down that lane. He tells me he thinks I'm attractive and hot, and I just brush it off. Thinking it's lies. It feels so wrong to hear that.

    You might be right that there are plenty of areas gay guys hang out that aren't bars, but if there are they usually blend in with the straight guys and I'm really not in the mood for another round of Russian Roulette. Most of the support areas seem to be concentrated in wilton, but the people in the area are as I explained before. Anything else outside of that is usually high schools, and I'm well past that. I can't really make the meetings at my college either (although they aren't well organized) because my class times don't line up and I can't afford the extra gas along with my job.

    It's not as though I haven't tried, but the groups around here either have the kind of people I don't click with or when I do show up it's only one other person (or none at all). It's hard, and I don't live close enough to Wilton to have the luxury of hanging around the area to see what pops up all the time. I'm not doing Miami though, nothing is worth that traffic. Even my orthodontist was pushing it.
     
  8. SiennaFire

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    There are gays of all ages. Some are even over 40 with kids, dad bods, and life experience.

    Why do you feel uncomfortable hearing that you are attractive and hot? Why do you think things would end in disaster if you let things progress with him?

    To clarify, I was talking about LGBT meetups and support groups. Trying to pick out gay guys in a blended event is an advanced move. Is there a way to spend less in one area of your life so that you can afford the extra gas money to attend gay events at your college or elsewhere?

    You will not click with everybody, so clicking with one person is a good start. Maybe that person can introduce you to other guys or groups with a similar mindset. Networking is an important part of bootstrapping yourself as gay.
     
  9. justaguyinsf

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    I've never lived outside of the US but based on what gay guys who have come to the US from other countries have told me the "coming out" process in the US is unique in its emphasis on making a public declaration with the expectation that you then have to try to fit yourself within one of the microcosms of the gay world. Instead, I understand that guys in Europe, for example, simply come home one day and introduce their parents to their new boyfriend and then get on with living the same life they were already living. The odd dichotomy found in the US between straight vs. gay and the need to choose sides doesn't exist. Makes a lot more sense to me.
     
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  10. Choirboy

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    Wow, that sounds so much more relaxed and healthy of an approach! I was generally low key about it all, but a cousin of mine asked flat out why so many gay men in particular felt the need to make such a big deal out of it. I totally agree!

    We seem to have moved way beyond looking for acceptance and into a bizarre kind of celebratory attitude towards something that's really kind of basic when you get right down to it. I didn't come out to change my life or dive headlong into some new community that I have nothing in common with. I LIKED a lot of my old life. I just had enough of being married to a crazy lady who was trying to control my life, and figured that if I was going to make a change in my living arrangements, I might as well be honest about the future possibilities.

    Of course then you get people accusing you of being (horrors) "heteronormative" or motivated by Shame, and Internalized Homophobia, and I'm just thinking, for me, that's just crap. I don't WANT a particularly different life. I just want to come home to a guy at the end of the day.
     
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  11. OGS

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    I was one of those people where coming out sort of fixed my life. I can understand how that would be frustrating to someone whose experience was different, but I've come to realize over the years that the process wasn't about any sort of generic gay thing but about how the closet had wounded me as a very particular person

    I'm a natural sharer (some would say over sharer). When my Mother died and people had to explain my absence from the office to clients they tried to be tactful and respectful with a sort of "he's had a family situation" type thing. My coworkers were surprised that almost every single person they equivocated with this way responded with "OMG did his Mother die?" My coworkers' reaction pretty much across the board was "why does everyone who's ever been in your office know your Mother was ill?" To which I replied "what, don't you talk to your clients?"

    Sit down with me, in pretty much any setting, and unless you slap up some pretty heavy resistance you'll hear everything about me. And, often much to your surprise, you'll tell me everything about you. I think because of this being closeted was just unbearable for me. Careful self-censoring is just not natural for me and when I came out it was like I was a bottle of champagne and someone finally got the cork out. Even my Mother commented that it was like I was finally "really there."

    You may not be corked or you may not be uncorkable. That's alright. It's good to be damaged and fix the damage. It's also good just not to be damaged in the first place.

    The one thing as far as advice that jumps out at me is this:

    There are a couple things I wonder about here. Most of the gay men I know aren't very close to the stereotypes, but some of them are. If there's nothing wrong with that--well, what's wrong with it? I'm not particularly that way--I'm one of those guys that occasionally someone who's sort of misguided will describe as straight-acting. Those who are more stereotypical, well it seems like all they really expected was not that I be like them but just that I be alright with how they were. I think you're right when you say about that expectation that it "got into my head." My advice would just be get it out of your head. On a side note I will say that while most of my gay friends aren't very stereotypical some of the most fun ones are.

    On a further side note hardly anyone is actually happy with their naked body (and those who are have other things they're uncomfortable about) we just get on with it... The first step is: when someone thinks you're hot believe them, even if it's just to take a moment to bask in it before moving on with the normal self-critical bullshit.:laughing:
     
  12. DAXIII

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    Unfortunately the support groups tended to be among the kinds I listed. I’ve tried them all, I’ve never been to one of those mixers.
     
  13. DAXIII

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    I wish it was like that.
     
  14. looking for me

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    since coming out, i've met people who are stereotypes and people who are not. one thing i determined to do was to be me, be true to me, i wore a mask, and a persona, for far too many years there have been people who didnt click with me, some actually hostile, but to be honest those are not the people i want and need in my life. i have found being me and being authentic is more important than 'fitting in'

    i hope this helps you.

    BTW, i found counseling went a long way to helping me work a lot of that out.
     
  15. DAXIII

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    To be honest I don’t know what is more important, being me or fitting in. Because to me it doesn’t matter how “you” you are if you don’t have anyone else. Then again, are you really with them if you just have a mask?

    I don’t know which is more important. I don’t want to mask but I don’t want to be alone either
     
  16. looking for me

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    the thing is when i dropped the straight mask and let myself be openly queer, make jokes from that point of view, and be me instead of trying to be someone else people who are good with me and for me are moving into my circle, and me into theirs. just be you and let it be organic, BTW i met many of these people through groups like Pflag.
     
  17. DAXIII

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    Except it isn’t about being gay or queer for me. That was never what it was about. It’s because I don’t act in such ways that I’m alone. I usually act like some kind of cartoon character. I like reciting lines from tv shows like all the time. You don’t understand how many people don’t like that. Even in the community people want you to be tame or their brand of crazyz
     
  18. looking for me

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    ok thats different from what i was thinking. how do you think you could approach situations so your more authenic?
     
  19. DAXIII

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    Not in any way that I would not be putting people off. That's why I'm pretty much locked up most of the time.
     
  20. looking for me

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    wish i had more i could help with. HUGS though.