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Transition socially or not?

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Mihael, Aug 17, 2017.

  1. Mihael

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    Hey.

    I have been wondering. I dress like a guy most of the time already, and I was wondering whether to transiton socially or not. All of the things like mannerisms and voice, I'm already done with those. I want to have more guyish interests too, but that's mostly because i like that kind of things and I want to socialise with other guys. No matter if I transition or not. I came out to close friends and family, but I didn't transiton in those settings. I'm speaking about name, pronouns, coming out to everyone, the way you navigate gendered things. I was not gender conforming to begin with, so it's nothing new that I do things "for men".

    As for my body, I don't really know, I have time, I think. Some days I want to be more attractive and have larger chest, some days I want a flat chest, some days I'm happy with what I have... Right now I don't have a problem with my chest, but when I imagine how I get old, I start to have a problem with the chest. I'm not sure about that, though. But I have the time to think it through before I get old. It's much time and I'll see how I'll feel in the future. SRS doesn't have results that would satisfy me, and I don't like the idea of testosterone either. It's too much of a change and I don't like the rugged appearance it gives. So... yeah, the question is about the social transition.

    Mostly I want to talk.
     
  2. SHACH

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    Hi dude. I feel like you've been wanting to try this for a while so... maybe you should? If you are super-OK with just living life being a masculine boyish female to the outside world, you can do that too, but I feel like you want to try social transition. The one problem with social transition without any testosterone or anything is that passing becomes a big thing you have to worry about. So just consider whether you pass and how much you're willing to put in constant effort if you don't pass easily. Anyway, if you've come out, there's no reason not to try social transition.
     
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  3. Mihael

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    Hi! Long time no see.

    A big thing I worry about is... the backlash, I don't want to pretend I'm cisgender or to be gender-conforming, To pass. I don't have the ambition to. There is lots of subtle and not-so-subtle shit that can be thrown at me. Go google and you'll see all those dense people hating against gender fluidity and "special snowflakes". It's like... I've heard some of that in person, but I have close people who are wlling to understand. But not everyone is like that.

    No, no. It's like... on one hand I have worries about the practicalities of that, but on the other I worry if this is the right direction to go. I don't know if it would bring me personal satisfaction or if it would improve the situation socially, gender-wise. I'm for sure uncomfortable being constantly pressured into feminine roles. I don't know how much that is my trans brain speaking, and how much this is really happening.

    I'm not big on being called female terms, I actually don't mind, and even lately I don't know how I feel about first person gender (my native language is like that). I think I overthought the subject, because I no longer know which way is up or down. I might be scared what people would think, and do, seeing an obvious woman using masculine forms. But I don't know any more how I myself feel about it either.
    An ideal situation would be if I had a good nickname alternative to being called by my birth name, but the reality is that I'm attatched to my birth name, and I don't see it as a female name, just as my name. If I was a dr or something like that, I'd be called dr Surname, and that would be it. My name also doesn't have a masculine counterpart. I managed to make it into something English-speaking and gender neutral, but I'm still attatched, and it's... kind of wierd to be called something English-speaking if you're not in such a country. I'm just not... convinced.

    I guess with gendered things, stuff would stay as it is. Probably. But I can't know the people's response, so there is a risk factor. I don't know. I don't know if I'll like it. I can't predict. I don't really know how I feel about that. I always went with the flow.

    I'm not super convinced. And if I'd be alright just being a masculine woman? I mean, I know I would be alright with that by myself. I just socially feel pressured into feminine assumptions. If everyone respected that I don't fit the stereotypes and assumptions, I'd be fine. But I don't have the strength to prove on every small step that no, I don't like children, yes, I like girls, yes, I like to drive, and so forth. And they get offended if I respond ironically or angrily. I'm afraid that with social transition, it might in reality be the same, the constant effort, the constant coming out, the constant explaining. I'd be alright being a tomboy, if I passed as such at all... I wish I did, I wish I could.

    But that would be a very smooth transition. I took care of everything already, besides the formal coming out and stuff like that. I don't know if I'm not at the minimum effort maximum effect spot at this point. If any further action will not have cost outweighing the benefit. It's like... blah... *head exploding* maybe I don't need to rush before the school comeback if the transition is that smooth.
     
  4. Mihael

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    *sigh* I'm asymptotically approaching it, aren't I? I see more and more details around it, and maybe I could transition without changing my name, by just coming out? Then I would be like... one step from that. If I came out to more people, it's probable I'd get pushed to the other side socially and pronouns/ the language would happen anyway. I'm just not sure if I prefer to keep it private info or not. I think so then.
     
  5. SHACH

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    You should at least tell people how you feel about things to see if people can be more sympathetic. Tell them that even if youre not totally sure about your identity them trying to put you in feminine roles causes you a lot of social dysphioria and it really doesn't help with what you're struglling with.

    But what do you mean that you can't pass as a tomboy? Being a tomboy is all about your presentation and interests it's not really limited by body type or anything. The main problems with being a tomboy is because its unconventional... older people, your parents etc have a certain image of you as soon as they know you're a girl and they expect all sorts of weird things... but none of them are compulsory. Those sorts of comments mildly annoy me but I have to laugh them off... there are a lot of moments like that in life if you're different in any way, and that's just how it is. I mean I've always got weird ignorant racial comments too and thats something that is impossible to change. Liking girls again is something that you will have to assert - every queer woman has to. And I know even feminine and even straight girls who aren't fond of the idea of children. The only thing that I find baffling about my version of being a tomboy is how adverse I sometimes am to the idea of being the girl to the guy in a straight relationship - that I really hope stops getting on my nerves because I find it limiting, (though maybe its just a sexuality thing I'm not willing to accept).

    So yeah, I feel like a sorta ambiguous social transition is probably harder in some ways, but for some people it is the right thing. You can make it work like someone like Ryan Cassatta. You've just got to decide if some dysphoria being lifted from a social transition will make the inconveniences on the other side more bearable. As a female perhaps you are experiencing both social dysphoria and the normal sort of annoyance in the situations you describe, and perhaps by socially transitioning to male you might be able to reduce the dysphoria... you can't escape that there will always be inconveniences from being different.

    You have to decide which side is easiER if not EASY. When I put it that way it may be tempting to say "well obviously staying on the female side because then I don't have to come out and assert myself", but I don't mean which side is easier to GET to - there will be a difficult period of changeover for transitioning - but which one will be easier to settle in and be most fulfilled. That's what you've got to think about, and perhaps trying will help.
     
    #5 SHACH, Aug 19, 2017
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  6. Mihael

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    I can't pass as a tomboy. I'll explain. I have this one friend who is brutally honest and I think he, as always, hit it on the nail. He was surprised when I told him I feel like a guy, and I asked him why. He said that it's not like he can't believe me, but nothing specifically points to that either. That I'm just Emery. That I don't look like any gender to him, but he's figuring I either must be a lesbian or want T shots... let's leave those conclusions alone, I'm not either. It's like... I definitely dislike being "the girl" in a straight relationship, whatever this means. This is what makes this friend think I must be a lesbian. But I had relationships with guys and they worked to smaller or larger extends. Some guys prefer to be submissive and don't mind a girl who is very upfront and openly does the chasing. Some guys have feminine or androgynous personalities. It's those that I usually couple up with.

    I'm not even thinking about children. I might want them in the future, but I'll have to be a lot calmer to be able to handle this. Right now, I would literally go crazy even if I were to get pregnant and have a big tummy. I need sport nearly everyday for the sake of sanity. I have to settle down before I start thinking about kids. For sure.

    Mhm. Yup, it the benefit needs to balance out the losses. I have to say, I have a problem with loosing my cool way too quickly recently. I always find it a good thing to look at a problem closely and split it into pieces. So I think I'm not big on social dysphoria per se. It's something that can be mildly annoying to me, but I change my mind frequently and my crazy brain keeps on fluctuating whether I'm a he or a she. I just sort of... repress it. I can. I just leave it alone. What does drive me crazy is the expectations. I'm just tired. I have to actively push against this all the time. The hard thing about it is that you can't catch them, you can't pinpoint what they are doing, you can't comfornt it, debunk it. I can put any amount of effort, they will always see me as a feminie girl in the generality, every assumption they will make is feminine, even if I prove on every step that I'm not feminine. I don't get where this logic is coming from. It doesn't make sense. I'm exhausted, nevertheless. I'm exhausted with the constant fighting. You have to prove the same things over and over and over. Hm... I don't know if not transitioning is easier for me, staying quiet consumes a lot of my energy. But there are no ways to come out either. I'd have to "make fuss", it seems. But I don't know if transitioning would take me where I want either. If people would be unable to get it once again. In the ideal world, there would be a box I would approximately fit into, and I would be visible as a member of this category. I have to say I know what you mean about the unpleasant comments, and ai've always dealt with those too. They are not a problem for me. However. The assumptions are.
     
  7. Mihael

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    It's ridiculous. When you do things that are considered for men, it's even worse. They say that you can do x and you don't have to give up your femininity. I'd give up my femininity in a heartbeat, whatever it is. They keep pressuring me back. I want to do exactly the same things as men, not some "for girls" frilly version of that. Why do they keep on doing this? I mean, probably I'm a minority once again, but... It's nerve-wrecking.

    It's like, I don't have specific likes or dislikes I have to assert. I more... have unfulfiled needs that I have no idea how to fulfil, and I'm constantly being pressured into being someone I'm not. In a very general meaning of this phrase. It's plain and simple expectations that I don't even know how to fight. Being treated like a girl is unfulfiling and boring.
     
    #7 Mihael, Aug 19, 2017
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  8. SHACH

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    I think the fact that your friend doesn't see you as a gender shows that you are not putting across this air of femininity that you think you are. I imagine you're putting across masculine or at least androgynous energy which confuses him but because he is your friend he's not trying to psych you out - he just cares about you as you. That's great. That means he's not trying to judge you and fit you in boxes which should be liberating.

    I understand what you mean about there being expectations and people trying to shoehorn you into "girly frilly versions" of masculine pursuits to make sure you don't loose your femininity. But erm... people's expectations don't actually rule your life. Take some joy in thwarting them - it means you're not a sheep.

    Example: I've started going to the gym recently. I went to the gym and the trainer gave me a routine that was definitely strength-building, but kept me mainly out of the very male-dominated free weight area. He reassured me that I wouldn't grow huge muscles doing this - which is not something that would bother me, so the comment annoyed me. I started looking online and I realised that the routine was not structured well for optimal muscle growth because he had kept me away from big free weight movements. I also started watching youtube videos about fitness. If you do that you'll probably come across videos like "reasons girls should lift" and end up watching channels of women who are avid gym-goers. But I can't relate to their "girly frilly" version of lifting. These girls aren't afraid to do those big free weight movements, but I find they are all still focused on getting strong toned muscles but afraid of getting big muscles. Except in their glutes (ass muscles) - they are so so so obsessed with building thier glutes. And they also go to the gym in skimpy tops and tight leggings (always looking for the best leggings to show off those glutes). Tbh I didn't even know what to buy to wear to the gym when I saw this stuff cos I sure as hell wasn't wearing those leggings. In the end, I've had to focus on advice from male youtubers etc because I don't want to hear these women talking about how to get strong but not big and how to build a fine booty. Why should I care about that? I don't. I bought all male gym wear and I follow a routine made by a man full of big free weight movements and I eat as much as possible because I want to build real msucle mass. My mother thinks I'm weird and has joked that I'm gonna start taking steroids. She tells me that my aunt thinks I'm acting crazy. I tell her I don't care. And I'm doing what I want and I'm progressing. None of these conventions and expectations and offers of a dumbed down feminine version of lifting have stopped me. Nothing can stop you. You said that its not just silly comments that get to you its the whole overarching EXPECTATION. Well you need to stop caring about whatever big picture people have in their mind for you and focus on your own and then that big looming shadow of expectation just becomes... people's stupid comments that bear no weight.

    In terms of having a feminitiy you want to get rid of... yeah I get that, but maybe you should try and see it another way? Do everything masculine you want to do, be as masculine you want, don't hold back on that, but also allow yourself to embrace the feminity. Even guys have a feminine side and it's often them trying to eliminate it that causes problems for them emotionally. Feminity can be endearing and indicate a softer caring edge, or it can be sexy too in a very powerful way. I don't know about you but when I see those sides of my own femininity I'm very grateful for it and I find it quite fun. Take the good powerful parts of it and leave behind people's limiting expectations.
     
  9. Mihael

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    I know what you mean about the expectations. Believe me, I tried... thwarting the expectations and taking pride in it... The problem is that I can't catch them. I just can't cath when and where this happens. I sort of hit a wall with it. I don't know how to convey that well... I also thought people's expectations (and what they imagine) don't rule my life. For like... years. But they do to some degree. Very subtle things sum up, like in electron tunneling :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    It's not like I think I put across an air of femininity. People just assume it based on the genitals. Just based on that. At least that's my theory. I'm also not the extremely rugged type. I don't lack in sensitivity and I don't think it's okay to be a savage either. I like violent films, gore, etc, but I think there is a boundary that you shouldn't laugh about it. Yeah of course guys have some femininity, I also do. Because I'm a normal guy, not a caricature. Even though in some aspects I am a caricature of a man, I'm far moe masculine than many guys. I'm more feminine, but more masculine too. It's like when I went to the cinema with some friends and one of them concluded that he finds leather jackets cool, but not for him, and I keep on wearing a black leather jacket. Gyus go to the gym, and I go train martial arts... I actually lacked time for 3 years, and want to resume. Fun fact: martial arts make you walk and stand a certain way, like a soldier, one might say, lol. That shows sometimes. Oh, yeah... I got very similar comments to those you did when I started to train karate. My mom was worried I'm going to look like a man *sigh* That happened a bit, but more because of the stand and movements than because of the muscles, muscles don't grow that much, especially on a female, but you must imagine I'm not worried :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    Yeah, he's a very good freind.

    Oh, it's cool you started going to the gym. By the way, with time, you build muscle more easily, because you gain muscle and lose fat and this changes the hormonal balance a tad.

    Anyway, when it comes to femininity, it doesn't bother me personally. I consider it normal and human to have a bit of both. I would be surprised if I met someone who wasn't feminine or masculine at all, in any way.

    It's like... I do what I want... and it doesn't work for me. I fail to make the impression that would approximate my personality. I'm rather silent and not a show-off, so I guess that plays a role and leaves people guessing. This same brutally honest friend told me that it's not like I wear my thoughts on my sleeve, so he can't really tell certain things. I guess this sums it up. The problem is only in the impression.

    Maybe I should be more open about my more brutal edge, lol.
     
  10. Mihael

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    Hm. I think they might be just making those feminine assumptions... maybe they are not... maybe they just want to be nice and think I'll like to be recognised as a woman, and this is about it. Recognition as a woman. Kindness. And I don't feel female and don't want that recognition as such. I find it annoying. Maybe it's just that I need to come out.

    P.S. My mom is okay with me binding, lol. I figure she thinks it's quirky, but she didn't comment a bit. She just looked at me wierd a couple of times. It's not that it makes much of a difference, because I'm not too busty.

    P.S. 2. Jeez, how much time it takes to dig through that tangled stuff...
     
    #10 Mihael, Aug 19, 2017
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  11. Mihael

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    I feel like I reached the point you just need to stop... I don't know if there is anything more to think about there. Maybe I just need to do stuff right now. And see. I think I'll give it all a slow try.
     
    #11 Mihael, Aug 19, 2017
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  12. Mihael

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    Ekhm. Anyone? Anything? Or is it too complicated? *dies silently out of nerves*
     
  13. SHACH

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    I though you said you just needed to stop? So I left it alone. I dunno why no-one else is responding tho. If you can't overlook all these expectations, perhaps you do need to try socially transitioning. If you're really that unsure that you won't take that step tho, then the only thing you can do is stop thinking about it for an extended period of time. Think about anything and everything else. If that makes it fade a bit maybe you don't have to take that step. It's made me stop freaking out about a lot of problems. But I think I've told you to do that before and you keep coming back. Only you know whether its because you haven't actually put the effort to stop the negative thought patterns or because you truly are suffering from something deeper. If I assume as I usually do that you are at least as level headed as me (which is not an acheivement haha) and you're not just letting yourself spiral constantly, then just try socially transitioning and see if that's what you need.
     
  14. Mihael

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    Ah. Alright.

    Nah. I'm just dying. It's just well too tangled and complicated. I feel like shooting myself xP I really hope this all gets resolved at some point. Or better soon.

    I have about a month left until uni comeback, so it's not a good setting to supress philosophising, because let's be honest, it is philosophising. I think there is a boundary of overthinking and this is when thinking only stresses you out and brings nothing new.

    Alright then. Yeah, giving it a try seems like a plan. I can always back off.
     
  15. Mihael

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    I hope I can back off. That's what is scary about that. Transitioning is a Big Deal.
     
  16. Mihael

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    I feel like shooting myself either way tbh. Sorry for multiple posts. Mobile. I'm between rock and hard place. Duh.
     
  17. Eveline

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    In my experience, one of the problems that we face as trans people is that our conceptions of femininity and masculinity in context of ourselves is based on the gender we identify as. There is a huge gap in what it means to be feminine as a man and feminime as a woman. Take for example going to the gym, if you are a man, going to the gym is a way to reinforce your masculinity. However, as a woman, going to the gym is not actually related to gender expression and if it is, it is closer to being a feminine activity because of the structured nature of it and its relation to beauty.

    This is actually a serious problem when people look to femininity and masculinity as a way to judge whenever a person showed signs they are trans because if you are a trans woman, their perception of you as a man makes them loom for male feminity which is typically based on stereotypical representations of gay men. It is also heavily based on visual and auditory imagery. As a man, to prove your masculinity, you will try to cultivate a certain image that people perceive as masculine. However, for women these activities tend to be neutral and people just see them as non conforming behavior which in the case of women is considered positive. To cultivate a more masculine image to people who perceive you as a woman. You would need to act in ways that don't come naturally to you, it is much more heavily based on personality and preferences than external presentation.

    Like you, my behavior is non conforming but not in the slightest bit feminine or masculine in context of being a man. On the other hand, I am highly feminine if someone actually views me in context of being a woman. Because I'm highly feminine, when I came out, it seemed reasonable to turn to my femininity to try to prove that I am trans. However, I hit a wall because by invoking femininity to people who viewed me as a man, I actually made people doubt that I am trans because I am the furthest thing from being feminine in context of being a man.

    So in other words, when coming out as trans, focus on dysphoria and self identification, don't focus on gender expression and femininity and masculinity or gender roles because it is just as likely to make people doubt you if you do.

    About the question of coming out, our perceived gender heavily influences people's reactions and behaviors. People treat women and men differently because our minds are geared towards doing so. It is a way to simplify interactions and helps us connect with others as we are able to predict their behavior and know how to respond depending on predefined often socially constructed schemata.

    As you are a man, as long as you are perceived by others as a woman, there will be a descrepency between how you expect others to respond and how they respond and how they expect you to respond, and how you respond. Social transitioning can help resolve this problem to those who are close to you and are able to accept you, but publically, if you don't pass, people will not respond as you expect them to or you won't respond as they expect.

    I hope you find this helpful in some way, I really need to get to bed as I've been awake for 32 hours now...:pensive:

    Hugs,

    Eveline
     
    #17 Eveline, Aug 21, 2017
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  18. Mihael

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    I know what you mean, it's a certain stereotype or vision people have based on how you look. I don't think it's unique to transgender people. I don't think I do many things actually in order to express my gender. If any. Or if I feel dysphoria. I don't do actually anything in order to express anything, I'm not a too expressive person in general. It' doesn't help my social skills, I guess. My favourite outfit... the outfit I wore today and I liked was black jeans and a navyblue tshirt. Boring, huh? The jeans were a bit ripped, but that's it.

    I think the difficult breakthrough is between close people and strangers. Strangers in general have an extremely slim chance to have a correct concept of anyone, because the information they have is so scarce. Again , not unique to trans folk. But actually when you approach this boundary of closeness? How to resolve this? I find it impossible to break this barrier because of the wrong reading. Of course not everyone is utterly wrong, humanity still deserves some hope. That's individual. Some people still see things for what they are, not for appearances. Maybe coming out when someone becomes closer is a good idea then?
     
  19. Mihael

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    Meh, I'd just better let it slide. I've had all these thoughts already. The tough moment is to open up about that...

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    I just realised something. Going by a more masculine name will change as little as anything that has no impact on relationships with others. If I don't open up. Maybe I actually didn't feel safe enough to open up where I didn't ? Gender expression, what you do, does actually change this in some ways, too. In very everyday ways.
     
    #19 Mihael, Aug 21, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  20. Mihael

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    Yeah, I guess I dress masculine in order to express my gender, that this would be about it.

    Let's just buy a tie and be chill :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    Pfff. Massive freakouts... Life wouldn't be the same without those, lol...

    It's funny. Every time ai read the same thing, I notice different things. So like... social transitioning wojld help, right? If I don't bother with strangers... and I don't.

    I have to say it infuriated me once again, at first, all the stuff people do, the judging, I just really, really hate that...