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Am I the only one here who only believes in 2 genders?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Wolfwing, Jul 18, 2017.

  1. Wolfwing

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    So I'm not trying to insult any of you or invalidate your identity, I'm just wondering if anyone else here doesn't believe in nonbinary genders? Also if you have some proven scientific evidence for nonbinary, I'd like to see it with sources.
     
  2. Ruby Dragon

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    I personally feel like most of us were raised with the general idea of there being only two genders - male and female. I think in a way, it's just like with the big variety of sexualities. Everybody fits some sort of mold, and it doesn't matter which mold you fit into, you are a legitimate person with legitimate feelings and we all deserve love and acceptance. I know it's hard to imagine anything other than what we were raised to believe, but hey - most of us were raised to believe that a man and woman belong together, yet here we are: Some are questioning, some are bi- or pansexual, some are gay. We are such a diverse and colourful community, and we should all learn to be more accepting and open-minded about other people's beliefs of themselves, their gender(s) and/or sexuality/-ies.
     
  3. silverhalo

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    Why do you need scientific proof? Do you give people scientific proof for you gayness?
     
  4. scs96

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    I don't really believe in societal gender norms. People should where whatever they want and express themselves any way that they want. I personally, don't identify as anything but my assigned gender at birth so I can't really talk too too much from personal experience, but I'm a cis female and honestly, I'm not all that feminine. But I'm not overly masculine either. I can absolutely understand people having gender dysphoria or even switching from day to day based upon their feelings regarding their own body and gender.
     
  5. Wolfwing

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    Well if someone asked for scientific evidence for my sexuality, I'd provide it because wouldn't it to be inform someone than to just say they're wrong or uneducated?
     
  6. silverhalo

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    Oh yes for sure, I think maybe I was making a crap point. I guess gender research is somewhat behind homosexual research and potentially there might not be any proof yet. I suppose my view is that I probably don't totally get it because I don't feel that way but why would that many people arrive at that description or label if it wasn't real? I mean sure you can always argue that people do it for attention and there are people who do things in life for attention but not this many people arriving at this point with such different personalities and stories.
     
  7. Wolfwing

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    Well I'm not 100% sure why so many people identify as nonbinary but I've looked the definitions of nonbinary genders and they seem really vague, so it could likely be because some people dont fit into every gender role so they feel they are either not truly or not completely that gender and then they stumble upon these identities and since these definitions are vague, they get convinced that they're nonbinary. A good example of this would be aliusgender which is defined as a gender which is removed from common gender descriptors and guidelines. Though I of course am not saying this applies to all nonbinary people, what I'm saying is that this is how some of them could have reached the point of thinking they're nonbinary.
     
  8. Creativemind

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    I would say, for the most part, I only believe in two genders too. I just usually lie about that to keep the peace.

    The biggest problem with a lot of non-binary definitions is that they are so stuck in gender roles. There is NO such thing as a fully masculine or fully feminine person. All men have a feminine side, all women have a masculine side. Some men are more feminine than masculine, and some women are more masculine than feminine. They are still men and women. Binary transgender makes sense though, since It's always been defined as gender dysphoria- especially physical. Most trans people I know dislike their body parts or at least feel something is missing. They might be neutral, but usually still want hormones or surgery (not everyone wants surgery because It's expensive and doesn't work well, that's okay too). The point is, it wasn't unheard of for trans women to be butch or tomboyish in behavior or dress (or girly trans men that crossdress) simply because they still wanted hormones and body changes.

    I would believe in non-binary if it comes with a lot of dysphoria, and sometimes it does. But to define gender by how masculine or feminine you are? That's sexism. It's reactionary and no different than how conservative republicans think about gender.
     
  9. Libertino

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    In any discussion of gender, there seems to be a difficulty in distinguishing gender roles from what some would class as "innate gender". The existence of transgender people seems to prove that there is such a thing as innate gender that goes beyond societal roles and stereotypes yet is distinct from biological sex. Don't ask me how it differs, though.

    Non-binaries seem to be people whose innate gender is not male or female. They have a biological sex and their roles may be either/or, but for some reason, they do not feel that their gender, the one they present as, is male or female. I don't have much problem accepting this as possibly valid, but I do wonder about a few things:

    For how many non-binary people is identifying as non-binary temporary?
    How is identification as non-binary affected by gender roles? Creativemind brings up some of the issues related to this question.

    For the most part, it seems that most people will "settle" for one gender or the other. Non-binary seems to be an ambiguous "between" state that is not meant to be a final statement on one's gender identity.
     
    #9 Libertino, Jul 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  10. silverhalo

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    Ok I understand your point but I don't think it is always about masculinity or femininity. I would say I have a lot of masculine traits but that doesn't affect my gender, I don't feel any less a girl because I am not particularly feminine.

    Perhaps this is because it is so widely unacceptable that they feel pressured to pick in order to conform?

    I have to say it's something I know little about and have done little research into but I can imagine 20 years ago or so there were very similar discussions about homosexuality and as part of the LGBT community I believe we should be open to believing in things that we don't totally understand.
     
  11. silverhalo

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    Potentially. I am by no means saying that all descriptions are perfect etc but surely that is like someone questioning their sexuality because the stereotype has told them that something they do is gay. It doesn't mean they are or are not. It doesn't mean gay does or doesn't exist just because someone wrongly defined themself because of a poor description.
     
  12. juxlia

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    To preface, I accept what you believe and I won't try to change that, but as as a person who identifies as nonbinary, I don't identify as that by how masculine or feminine I feel. In my opinion, gender doesn't correlate to how masc. or fem. you are, it's how you feel. I'm AFAB and I would rather wear "boy's" clothes over "girl's" clothes, but I also love doing makeup and making myself feel pretty.
    I don't feel like either a female or a male. Not nothing, just something. I like to dress according to how I feel - I don't feel according to how I like to dress.
     
  13. Spot

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    Why are people comparing this to homosexuality? There's been multiple studies that suggest a biological cause for being gay and who would claim that homosexuality isn't real? Even if they think it's a sin, they still acknowledge that it exists :unamused:

    And I'm skeptical. There's been no studies into non-binary genders, as far as I know. I've looked for them and I haven't found any. The brain is either male or female and I cannot imagine that it could 'flow' between the two. I'd only acknowledge a third gender, 'androgynous' maybe. So this would mean that their brain structure would be somewhere in between the genders and not clearly male or female like intersex genitalia but a mental condition as opposed to physical. If this third gender does exist, I'd imagine it'd have to be much less common than binary transgenderism which affects 0.3% of the population.

    That being said, I don't care what gender you identify as. I don't believe you're 'stargender' or whatever but I'll respect you as a human being. I have friends who are otherkin, I certainly don't believe in that but I love them regardless and I understand that it's important to them.
     
  14. DementedTrendz

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    No your not :grin:
     
  15. HM03

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    Besides, agender, nonbinary isnt something I quite understand. But at least the main identities (agender, bigender and genderfluid), I believe exist. Once it's starts getting super detailed, then it gets less....tangible and understandable for me.
     
  16. silverhalo

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    I'm not comparing it to homosexuality as such I am saying that just because evidence doesn't currently exist proving something doesn't mean it won't in the future. Not all that many years ago there was no scientific evidence for being gay.
    I also do not agree that everyone believes it exists, the mere fact there are people that think it can be cured and is a disease means that they don't think it actually exists in the same form as being heterosexual.
     
  17. Aussie792

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    Keep in mind that, regardless of physiological sex (and also keep in mind that sex occasionally throws up very non-binary results) the social and performative aspects we attach to gender are for the most part completely artificial. The way we think of gender isn't just physiological or even just psychological - it's also deeply enmeshed in unscientific customs and rituals which reinforce a notion that there can only be two genders. We're used to witnessing the performance of two gender roles in particular ways, shaped by constructed practices and social conventions in our daily lives. It's somewhat unclear whether the differences between the two binary genders are largely performative or largely physiological - which one is more dominant in our individual and collective sense of what gender is? And even if it's the latter, how much does it matter?

    I struggle to conceptualise non-binary gender. But that isn't to say I should as a result completely dismiss the validity of non-binary expression; there are evidently some cases where people by physiology do not solely possess the characteristics of one binary sex. And even if you believe gender is largely a matter of biology and psychology, then it's still probably still valuable to question the social good of not recognising non-binary identities; is there really an imperative great enough to justify dismissing divergent identities even without a 'scientific' reason?
     
    #17 Aussie792, Jul 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  18. Libertino

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    Identities are so personal, and so rooted in subjectivity, that they may not ever be scientifically verifiable. However, I would assume that some people who identify as "non-binary" will seek out scientific validation for their identity, even if it is never found. While I can understand the drive to accomplish that, I don't believe that it's necessary for its acceptance (in the same way that I don't believe the discovery of a "gay gene" is necessary for homosexuality to be "accepted").

    Unfortunately for some, asking them to accept non-binary genders or even transgendered individuals is such an affront to their conception of reality and its internal logical workings (as they perceive it) that it's akin to asking them to accept that the sun rises in the west or that 3 is greater than 10. They see it as part of a slippery slope of denying reality and truth.
     
  19. Flowey

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    Well I don't believe in non-binary identities. Nor I have any reason to believe why I *should* believe. They make themselves so incredibly easy to dismiss. What's with stuffs like a gender that is every gender and no gender at once? Or 4th and 5th gender, what is even the purpose? Sounds like something straight from fanfiction, hah. Because it's all subjective, how can one claim one type of non-binary gender is more legit than others? Ah well, I'd use the "they" pronouns if someone prefers that anyway. Afterall, they don't need my belief to identify as whatever they wish.
     
  20. Koizee

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    I admit, I get a little salty whenever someone says they're non-binary or something like that... (Im fine with gender-fluid though, or anything that still has he or she pronouns)
    Dont get wrong, I try not to feel these feelings and I dont act on them either
    Whenever someone says they are trans, and that they are either boy or girl, I think "Alright then" doesn't even phase me, but then when they go all in-depth I cant help but feel they are just trying to stand out (which is probably true for some of 'em) and they come off as snobbish and attention seeking
    Also non-binary just doesn't make sense to me, and the pronouns make communication incredibly hard