Are there only two genders?

I posted a lot but i don't think i belong in either camp. I want to learn and understand more about people's perspectives about their gender identity, but i don't feel that as someone who just identifies as gay and has no educational background in sexuality and gender studies...i don't feel that given those two points, i am really in a position to say 'this is which camp i'm in and this is what i firmly believe to be true'.

I try to be open minded and not judge people and that's it, really. Like if i had a friend who identified as nonbinary (or whatever they identified as on the non-traditional gender spectrum of terms i don't understand), i'd probably go with whatever they wanted me to call them and try to learn about their perspective and respect it, but that doesn't mean i think its a worldwide thing, it doesn't mean i accept it as a biological/whatever fact. It just means 'okay you are who you are and who am i to judge that'. That's my camp.

 

It is a fact, Humans are mammals, we are categorized with other mammals, specifically primates, and we are included with the taxonomy of all other earth animals. We are simply the last remaining species of a certain family of primates.

In reply to Simple Thoughts, I agree with the secondary example you've provided about what gender is.

You are misinformed, as not all people desire having the form of another biological sex, and here is why: some people experience gender dysphoria due to how they're socially read based on social standards and roles compiled around gender- this is known as social dysphoria (which is indeed different than social anxiety, because it's not the people that are the issue, but rather the hyper-awareness of ones own incongruence to others based around their own perceived gender and how others perceive their gender)- and gender dysphoria is not necessarily always based around an incongruence with ones assigned sex at birth but rather their assigned gender at birth, however this can extend to sex for some people as well, and for some the two "align" because of society's expectations of assigned gender and sex lining up. The other type of gender dysphoria, which you are referring to, is body dysphoria, which is how someone feels their own physical characteristics are incongruent with their gender. HOWEVER, even further from that!: body dysphoria can be somewhat divided into primary and secondary sex characteristics. Primary ones including genitalia and body shape, and secondary ones including physical and aesthetic features such as hair, voice, breasts/chest because these are all characteristics that change during puberty, and genitalia do not. So, many trans people may prefer having altered secondary sex characteristics, but not primary ones, so it's rather minimizing to say that all trans individuals are only trans if they want their genitals altered. Also, it creates the problematic idea that you can assume someone is trans or trans enough just by looking at them and making assumptions about a group of individuals with different desires. For example: I personally would love to have a flat chest, but I like my genitals and voice how they are, but I do not believe I will ever have the financial ability to have top surgery, nor would I want to due to the invasiveness and stress of it on top of my already existing chronic pain disorders.

 

The other issue is why does the government make it so easy at times to have HRT. I told my past to a counselor and they said at the end of it. It's really up to you. And can go back anytime. Or talk more or do both. I ponder this sometimes. Are they looking out for people or just making money by using people like lab rats to learn more? It sucks that they say it's not a disability or tell you your mentally ill or give you any information on why I think this way. They use to classify this as a mental disability or mental disorder but changed it due us able to work and think like anyone else. At least here they do....

 

I don't recall saying that inividuals are only trans if they want their genitals altered. I never said anything of the stort.

What I was saying is that being trans isn't just about pronouns. Most of these new genders are strictly about pronouns and nothing else it feels like to me. It feels more like they can't cope with not fitting neatly like a puzzle piece into what they think being "Male" or "Female" means as opposed to being some kind of in-between gender which requires a new set of pronouns.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm not gonna spit in your face if you have a set of pronouns you want me to use I'll use them regardless of how I feel about the topic.

 

No, you're once again missing the point. Gender is not just about pronouns, it's just you believe that all "new genders" are somehow of lesser value than binary trans men/women because the inviduals you are meeting only happen to experience dysphoria to an extent that makes them want to perhaps change their name or pronouns rather than their voices or bodies. To try and quantify that pronouns and names matter less than bodies is to talk badly of binary trans people too, because what if a binary trans man or woman only wanted another name or pronouns? Then it wouldn't be a case of "new genders that are strictly about pronouns from people who can't cope with not being a man because they were born a woman (or visa versa)" but for some reason it seems pretty easy to say that about someone who doesn't relate to being a man OR a woman.

Btw, if you're responding argument is going to be "well nonbinary people who use normal pronouns are okay, but I was only talking about people with neopronouns" you were still making a broad assumption about an entire group of people based on a small portion of it that is simply experimenting with the social radical culture that has arisin today. Youre not the one who is allowed to judge how other trans people's intentions come off just because it "feels" different to you or seems whiny, or passive aggressive, or whatever because that's making a very broad judgement about a large group of people and saying "nonbinary people are okay, so long as they actually have a real mental disorder that they can prove to me / they aren't just trying to get attention / they aren't annoying" or whatever. Because it "feels" to me that saying someone's gender doesn't matter at all of its only for pronouns sake is reducing someone's identity to words that someone just doesnt want to take the time to learn to be respectful to the person because it feels too weird to them, or it feels too weird to look at a girl with a high pitched voice in baggy men's clothing and use he/him for them, or because even if you don't care and feel completely fine using whoevers pronouns wherever and whenever, it doesn't mean you see someone as more than their sex or gender assigned at birth, or you don't believe they're really trans because in your eyes they could possibly "feel" the same way another binary trans person does or whatever else. It's the fact that you choose to use language that reduces people to what you believe are inane parts of someone's identity just because you can't understand why it's so important to them.

 

Don't make assumptions about what I will/won't argue next. You'll find I am an odd person who doesn't usually take the conventional paths.

I don't view people based on their sex or gender at all. Whether the one they identify as or the one they were born with. Gender and sex are arbitrary non factors to me that have very little to do with someone's personality. Having a specific set of genitals has nothing to do with who you are as a person. It's just a physical characteristic, that's it.

The reason I don't personally care for these new gender identities is because they feel completely unnecessary and bring nothing to the table. The only thing I can possibly gather from you saying you are one of these new genders is that you don't neatly fall into Societies definition of male or female. That's it. It adds nothing else to the conversation and offers me no greater insight into you as a person.

 

Better that than to try and apply gender roles to much of anyone anyway. But sadly, you'll find most people are not the same as you in that way in the world and often will assume gender roles based on someone's sex and gender unless explicitly told they cannot or forced out of it in some way. So on that hand, it's just rather hurtful to say that it's pointless in general. It may be pointless to you since you don't judge based on gender, but that doesn't mean it's pointless to the individual or in society.

 

That's getting to what I'm trying to say here though. I feel as though we'd get a lot further in society by breaking down gender stereotypes and roles than we will by re-enforcing them by creating subsets of gender via gender identities.

 

I just know that for 33 years I felt that I had no identity and that I hated myself, and I truly mean hated myself. But once I learned about gender fluidity, there was an instant click, and I felt that I finally understood myself. I am now getting to a point where I think I can begin to love myself and have an idea of who "I" am. No one has to "believe" in non binary genders, but I know I would have eventually killed myself if I did not learn about the possibility of non-binary genders.

 

Gender is a social construct. The idea of two genders is biologically supported by females and males having certain tendencies towards certain behaviors due to differences in biology/hormones. However, pretty much no one acts exactly like a boy or girl anyway. Honestly, strong gender nonconformity is quite common among nonheterosexual individuals, and there's been some studies suggesting that both gender nonconformity and samesex attraction is developed based on hormones in the womb. (which works like a gradient).

But Thailand has separate bathrooms for people identifying as third gender. I imagine the thought process was like, you don't act like a hetero boy or girl, well I guess you aren't a boy or girl then. Most places only recognize two genders because hey, you mostly just see two sexes.
I feel that it is up to an individual to figure out how they prefer to identify as, because it's important, especially when it inevitably becomes mixed with politics. I could see how gender identity is analogous to sexuality in the sense that sure, pretty much nobody is 100% straight or gay but to say that, "oh why can't we all just identify as sexual beings" would undermine the struggles that gay people have from discrimination and also completely ignore asexuals. Others may say, "why should you identify as bi when you have a preference, you could just be more or less straight/gay" or "but everyone's kinda bi" but people identify as bi because they can't relate to being straight or gay. the reality is that definitions created by society as to what is straight or gay is rather strict and as long as straight and gay people are treated differently from eachother, and gay people feel pride as belonging to a group with a distinct culture or history, then identifying as bi is valid as well. If women and men are already treated differently, and women feel pride for belonging to a group that feels a women's study class is needed (because in reality regular history classes are full of men) then it is valid for people to identify as nonbinary. Even if we may be "all people" our society pushes us to be prideful for being different, because we are exluded or denounced as abnormal otherwise. Is that right? no. But it has been happening since the beginning of mankind, and it just won't go away any time soon. To completely remove that influence from everybody would be impossible, as categorizing people, to some degree, is a fundamental part of human nature, and such attempt to completely remove that on a larger scale would create and impose harmful hypocrisy, because you'd just end up ignoring the faults of human nature, while continuing to commit it.

 

Getting People to Accept Androgyne as a Gender Identity Isn't Easy.
An Androgyne is someone who is androgynous. Having aspects of both genders.
That is one of the things that first made me question my own sexual identity. From the time I was a small child. I never was interested in the stereotypical "boy" things.
I never liked P.E. class, I never liked sports. I would rather clean house than mow the lawn.
I was a "mamas" boy. I have tried to hide that. To my detriment. I tried to me a heavy drinking, bar hopping "macho man. My dad drank so I tried to emulate him. So I just became an alcoholic. I got mixed up with the wrong groups of people as "drinking buddies" etc.
If you feel like you are both, well you are. Admit it (at least to yourself) and move on. Do the right thing, don't hurt others but never try to live your life to please others.
That's some advice from someone who (admittedly) knows little about living as LBGT . . .etc. but knows about - heck I'm well past 50 - life. And I literally do have the scars to prove it.

 

Yeah, tbh, I completely am fine with using whatever pronouns someone wants. And I would never invalidate someone's identity.

But the whole gender role = gender identity is something I don't like. I have always considered myself a (cis) woman, yet according to some of these definitions, I'm actually secretly a man or non-binary because I'm not "girly" or "woman" enough by societal stereotypes.

But that's exactly the kind of thing I'm against. I want true gender equality and for gender roles to become irrelevant so everyone can be as masculine or feminine as they want. I want to be a woman, I want to be seen as a woman. But I don't want to be girly and I don't want to fit the female social role 100%. I want that freedom and that right to be both things. I honestly think the feminine gender role is very sexist and limiting and even most cis women don't like it (and likewise, the masculine gender role is sexist and limiting to men).

I do think everyone's gender identity is valid, but I also don't want us to be sending the wrong message that "man and woman means strict gender roles". It only exists to further segregate us and push us back into a conservative society. And teenage girls (or teen feminine boys) who don't like their gender role should have uplifting messages that It's ok to be a boyish girl or feminine boy without feeling they have to change that. If they think they're non-binary despite this, that's fine. But it shouldn't be the default label that's pushed.

I say this because I used to ID as non-binary because I didn't feel "woman" enough for society. But now I say: Fuck society. I am woman, I will always consider myself a real woman even if it doesn't fit into a neat, stereotypical box.

 

Same. And honestly, anyone who tries to say alternative genders = other variations of gender roles have it completely backwards and I wish some of the cis people who believe this would listen to our experiences as trans people. I found out that I was nonbinary because I've always been a non-conforming masculine woman, but even around other masculine women, I found there was something about myself that didn't click with their thinking. I'm totally fine with women being masculine and men being feminine and in the public eye I look like a masculine woman. But the reason I felt my true self was masculine was because I was trying to escape other people seeing me as a woman (and don't say I was trying to escape feminine gender roles because I know the difference and I actually prefer many of them because I'm naturally a soft submissive person), yet man doesn't entirely fit either. Not because I was proud to be a masculine woman, but because I was embarrassed that so many people mistook me as one that I could no longer look feminine. But I'm not a man either. But I guess that's not really good enough for anyone.

 

Can I just briefly congratulate this thread?

This is the first time I've ever seen this conversation being had in a peaceful and calm manner. most of the time one person is going "I identify as attack hellicopter lolz" and the other person is going "Cis scum!!!" and the conversation goes nowhere.

I really admire that I can actually get some real insight into this topic and I feel like I have a slightly more clear idea of he concept than before.


Even when I disagree with something I strive to at least try to understand the logic and reasoning behind an opposing view, and for the longest time I couldn't do that with this issue because the conversations about it always became so toxic that you never really got a chance to actually learn anything.

 

In general, there seems to be a lot of gatekeeping towards non binary people. I think a lot of people don't realize that most non binary people legitimately suffer from dysphoria in the same exact way binary trans people do. It's not some trendsetting special snowflake decision. It's not about wanting to avoid stereotypes. Anyways, why do we all get to speculate on whether non binary people are legitimate or not? It's their lives. And dammit, if a non binary person asks you to use they/them pronouns, use them. One little change in words can make a huge difference because yes, they experience dysphoria too
I guess what I'm saying is that we should respect those outside the binary and let them live their lives. Multiple genders definitely exist.

 

See...Me being me I believe there are more than two genders. Examples being: Agender, NonBinary, Genderfluid, Bigender...ya know things like that.

 

Anyone?

---------- Post added 14th Apr 2017 at 08:11 AM ----------

All I know is if humanity needs labels to have non-discrimination and education to work. Than so be it, otherwise discrimination causes people to feel this way because they think you don't fit otherwise. Then its the long road to being assepted. Even in grade 4 sex ed they said being gay was OK. But no one bought it. So it also comes down to parents beliefs and education that can result in discrimination also.

 

I haven't read through this thread, maybe this is positive and a good thread. But this is in a support forum. There are going to be people here that are getting a lot they don't deserve from their friends and family and who will come here thinking they will be around understanding and nice people. The way the topic is worded I feel like if I was genderqueer I would roll my eyes and not click and feel a little awful that I was expected to defend myself here of all places

 

I would advise reading the thread before you make any judgments. It's actually been very productive. I don't think anyone's had to defend anything to anyone. We've mostly just been having a conversation and a civil one. Sure there are differences of opinion, but nobody is being spiteful or hateful and we all seem to agree that whether or not we personally believe in the idea of multiple genders we'll respect the pronouns of people who identify as such.

Also I would think this is a very good place to have this conversation. There are people on here who have either lived it or are very well informed on the matter who can shed lots of insight and help educate people who are curious about the topic.

 

I, too, have been disappointed at the number of binary trans folk who are so quick to write off non-binary genders. Could it have something to do with feeling we threaten their visibility and rights? It's just so exhausting, since I see conversations elsewhere where people scream, "Having XY/XX chromosomes makes you a man/woman!" and "You can't change DNA!"