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Are there only two genders?

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by The1nkling, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. The1nkling

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    A friend of mine told me that she fully supports LBGT but doesn't believe there are more than two genders and doesn't add the "+" to LBGT. What's you guy's opinion? How many genders are there? (Obviously, I disagree with her because I'm genderqueer and choose to believe that all gender identities are valid.)
     
    #1 The1nkling, Apr 12, 2017
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  2. Winter Maiden

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    I agree with her.
     
  3. EverDeer

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    Typically, there are two recognized genders within our society, man and woman, which we are taught exist because they ascribe to the male and female sexes accordingly. However, because of recent times redefinition of gender due to trans people being more readily accepted, man and woman do not have to ascribe to their "correct" sexes and there are many different ways that people experience man and woman due to the fact that gender is pretty much relative to an individuals perception as well as their expression-- this is why there are masculine women, feminine men, etc. So, by all means I could imagine there would be people who do not experience their identities as static or confined within the feelings or definitions of just man and woman since there is so much relativity within just men and women alone-- I see men and women as "ranges" of gender where once they reach certain points they can hold attributes of the other, as well as infinite combinations of other categories or the absence of gender. So yes, I personally believe gender is a spectrum and there are multiple and many ways for an individual to experience themselves, despite our society only having the language and standards for two possible options.
     
  4. Hats

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  5. Worker Bee

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    I identify as agender. Not sure if that classes as a gender in itself.
     
  6. anthracite

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    Since not identifying (fully) as the gender you were assinged at birth is offically a symptom of being trans I agree. But to really judge I feel a bit too uninformed.
     
  7. Simple Thoughts

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    I view the idea of there being more than two genders as messy.

    In my opinion it's less that there is a multitude of genders and more that being one gender or the other doesn't actually define you in any meaningful way. Society largely places certain expectations on people based on male or female which it turn creates individual expectations of genders and when somebody doesn't meet that expectation or doesn't fall neatly into it instead of coming to the natural conclusion that maybe gender doesn't define you they instead create an entirely new class of gender to assign themselves into.

    That's how I view it anyways.

    Personally, I really don't care though. I have no issue with your pronouns, I'll say them if you ask me. Don't expect me to greet every random stranger I ever meet with gender neutral terms though, tell me yours and I'll respect them.
     
  8. Creativemind

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    ^ Pretty much what he said.

    But the only problem I have with multiple genders is when people are making them up for various gender roles. Most gender roles (most, not all) are a bunch of socially constructed bullshit.

    I find it strange that it's become wrong for us to gender genitals, yet we STILL gender masculine and feminine stereotypes. I don't see how the latter is any less sexist.
     
  9. Krishebble

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    It is hard to describe gender, though, without stereotypes. What makes some one male or female? While I would agree that gender expression is, in a large part, socially constructed, gender identity, or the essence of being male or female, can be understood through our biological construct. Certain aspects of our brain chemistry has been demonstrated to be different depending on the individuals sex, which would also effect a persons gender. If the brain chemistry more aligns with the opposite sex, but still remains different from both, the argument can be made that multi-genders must exist.

    As well, nature does not exist in an either or binary. Gender, like all things, can therefore be understood on a spectrum. My personal understanding, my identity, does not fit neatly within the gender binary. I have hardly ever felt like a man, though I was born biologically male. I also do not always feel female, though there are times that I do. Trying to define myself in a binary not only led to a life of self loathing and a feeling of not having an identity, but also felt in duress because I felt that my only option was an either or. But with an understanding of gender as a spectrum, my self-loathing has decreased, and I finally feel like I understand myself.

    And I must say, that since you are on this forum, I thank you for trying to deepen your understanding
     
  10. dyl pickle

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    There's more than two genders. When it comes to identifying as animals or inanimate objects, that's when I start to draw the line. However, in my mind, genderqueer and non-binary type things are 100% valid. I believe this because it's just what I believe, and I used to identify as gq myself, but either way if someone is happy a certain way and not hurting anybody, let them be happy whether you agree with them or not, you know?
     
  11. Creativemind

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    I've used to defined "male vs female" as what kind of genitals and chromosomes you have, but that was before I understood what trans people were. Then I decided it had something to do with the brain and what type of body and/or hormones you would like to have to ease dysphoria.

    The problem is though, that by defining gender by gender expression...we're saying you can't be a real man or a real woman unless you do x thing. This is the same argument that religious conservatives use to oppress people. Not to mention I have met trans people who don't follow their gender roles either. I knew a trans man who only wore makeup and dresses. He was very girly, but was a man because of his brain and dysphoria. That's another problem with gender roles as a definition. It doesn't only discriminate against and exclude GNC cis people, but also excludes trans people who don't like their gender roles.

    EDIT: I'm not saying non-binary people don't exist though. I've met them, even non-binaries who followed strict feminine only gender roles. I just don't like it when it gets confused with gender roles.
     
    #11 Creativemind, Apr 12, 2017
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  12. Krishebble

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  13. DreamerBoy17

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    Oh my I completely think there's many genders.

    Of course, it doesn't matter what I think. Not one bit. It isn't my job to police other people's identities
     
  14. Cailan

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    I believe gender is a spectrum, with two stopping points at each end, male and female. You can fall anywhere between those two points, and the vast majority of individuals fall near the ends of the spectrum.

    But wait, there's more! I see it not as a flat-line spectrum. More, I see it as one of those compass charts, where you add a y axis to the mix. So on the new axis you get less gender association (agender) and blend of genders (androgynous) somewhere in the middle.

    So, yeah, I believe our biology/genetic makeup is set up to support only two genders, but oh so many variations within the spectrum between! Some cultures give names to these points between, like the Samoan fa'afafine (MtF) and fa'afatama(FtM). Others, like the modern Western culture, have to invent new words. In keeping with our extremely individualistic culture, we give names to every little variation (such as the difference between a bi-gender and a genderfluid person), which IMO is getting a bit out of hand as new terms pop up every day. It ends up dividing us rather than uniting us.
     
    #14 Cailan, Apr 12, 2017
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  15. AriKari

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    I agree that there are two genders to begin with, but that doesn't mean you have to stick with one or the other. Even if you choose to identify as non-binary, that's still a choice made based on choosing to not identify specifically as one gender or the other. Gender-variant does not equal an entirely different gender.
     
  16. Cadi04

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    I hate how people assign sex in the first place. Get rid of the word male and female and people will stop labeling roles to sex that is creating my social anxiety. Due to this I rather be both male and female....
     
    #16 Cadi04, Apr 12, 2017
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  17. EverDeer

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    People don't choose to be nonbinary any more than someone "chooses" to be trans. I relate to the mindsets of being both male and female, I relate to some of the gender roles that exist but not all and in reality I'd prefer not to be assumed apart of either, I don't receive personal validation from being grouped in with other men or women more, I prefer being called a boy because of the two options available that simply seems like a slightly more accurate description due to our limited language, and I in no way desire to alter my biological body because I feel it has nothing to do with what I enjoy sexually, how I see myself compared to other people (because ultimately I am not a man or a woman so my body is irrelevant), or how others see me sexually. I have gender dysphoria just as much as any binary trans person that has negative side effects when I am not being respected as the gender that I am. I think what people need to learn is our language does not define our reality that exists-- we have finite options because of our languages limited ability to explain abstract concepts and individual experiences. There are trans men and women everywhere who do not desire to transition physically in any ways and they may have to live publicly as the "opposite" gender but does that invalidate how they feel and does that somehow make it impossible for me to refer to them in a respectful manner that is true to their nature? Absolutely not. If binary trans individuals can be respected with their names and pronouns when they don't "fit in" to the "right side" of their gender, then it can't be that difficult to respect nonbinary individuals who also appear gendered in some form that is not true to their mind"s identity, just because they are limited to the social standards and roles that society has predetermined. Nonbinary gender is different than gender roles, because if you lack the ability to see someone as their true self because they happen to enjoy the gender roles or clothing that somehow "ascribe" to their perceived sex, then that is actively choosing to believe a lie about someone because it is easier for you.
     
  18. Simple Thoughts

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    I know I threw my hat into this discussion earlier but I do want to make something clear.

    The reason I came to the conclusion I have about my belief that these new emerging gender identities are more related to gender roles and expectations placed on people than actual gender is because every time I've ever had this conversation no one can ever properly demonstrate what the difference is.

    I've tried multiple times to understand this, but I always eventually reach a point where gender roles and gender identity become blurred together and are more or less inseparable from one another and it leads me to think they are correlated.

    Someone earlier mentioned something about brain chemistry and that has my interest actually. If any of you happen to have any research material in relation to this? I'd love to read if there really is any variation in brain chemistry because that'd go a long way towards figuring out what exactly the difference is between gender identity and gender roles.
     
  19. jaska

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    If gender means the same as the sex of a brain, then yes, there is only two genders. I think there is a spectrum between masculine and feminine, but not a spectrum of gender. Your brain either gets sexed as male or female, and how masculine or feminine you are is shaped by how you grow up. I have no problem with people believing there is more than two genders so long as you don't demand that people use made up pronouns and abolish the idea of gender and sex completely. I also don't believe non-binary should be categorized in with transsexualism, a disorder that is actually PROVED, unlike the idea of non binary which has no evidence to prove it exists so far. It means people take trans people less seriously because of its affiliation with made up identities. Being Trans is not an Identity. It is a serious mental problem that is not a choice.
     
    #19 jaska, Apr 12, 2017
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  20. Lazuri

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    There are more than two genders. I go to a team of gender specialists almost every month; they're all heavily educated on the subject of gender and identity and if you ask them if there are more than two genders, they'll say that there definitely is.

    The point is that if you're asking people about it, like in this thread, you'll get a bunch of various answers all based on opinion and personal experience, but if you ask a professional who is truly specialized on the subject, they'll almost always say that there are more than two genders. That's simply the way it is.

    I've also met people with different genders and I know they're not just fucking around, because their gender identity just give them a lot of misery. It's not something you'd choose for yourself.