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Disagreement with the trans community

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Cailan, Jan 24, 2017.

  1. Bobsleigh1

    Bobsleigh1 Guest

    I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but isn't this a little unnecessary? Like, what would you people achieving by sharing these opinions? Are you going to try to change our opinions to match yours? Because I don't think that'll happen, this will likely just cause arguements. Wouldn't it be best to avoid that? You certainly shouldn't have to feel afraid to speak your mind, but, when all that you would likely cause by sharing these opinions would be negative on everyone involved, including you if people get angry, doesn't it seem like there's not much to be achieved by saying them? Unless you're simply curious on how we'd react and that's what you're intent is, or maybe you just want to put it out there. But starting an arguement, debates getting heated and emotional, people getting hurt/offended... plus, the fact that, even if the debate stays calm, it likely won't amount to anyone altering their beliefs or anything... I don't know if this is worth all that drama.
    I'm actually incredibly curious as to what you have to say as well, despite likely being about to disagree or be hurt by it, so, still, feel free to speak up with what you want to say. I just figured I'd share my piece on it.
    On another note, if people are going so far as to verbally attack you for your beliefs, maybe you do need to give beliefs an update? When it comes to debate and a differing of opinions, it's always been my personal rule that if the other side of the arguement are disagreeing or getting emotional or hurt by my opinions, I need to stop being stubborn in my stance and really try to consider what the other side is saying to maybe make some alterations, especially if people are being hurt by it. Of course, I'm not very good at changing my opinions and seeing when change should be made, humans are stubborn when it comes to being moved, but I think it's best to try? Not to imply that you should change your opinions necessarily just because a few people disagree, especially not before I've even heard your ooinions myself, but just that really listening and taking in what the other side is saying is often productive in carrying an effective debate.
    Also, sorry for the novel post, just trying to squeeze all my thoughts in since I'm likely not going to post here again. (Ahhhh, I hope this doesn't cause anything bad...)

    ---------- Post added 26th Jan 2017 at 09:11 AM ----------

    "What would you people achieving", I'm dumb, I meant "what woudl you be achieving"

    ---------- Post added 26th Jan 2017 at 09:12 AM ----------

    Wow, I even made a typo whilst correcting my typo...

    ---------- Post added 26th Jan 2017 at 09:15 AM ----------

    Also, *argument.
     
  2. Irisviel

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    because if you stop yourself from speaking because you might potentially offend someone, you might as well not speak anything that is an opinion as it might make someone experience a negative feeling


    And how would you know if your statement is wrong without confronting it with others? If you silence the discourse because of potential offense, then it's moot to have any conversation that isn't about weather.

    Especially when we know it is not an intention to cause harm, but to have a conversation.
     
  3. Bobsleigh1

    Bobsleigh1 Guest

    Personally, what you wrote in the first paragraph is what I prefer to live by. Why would I be so willing to hurt someone? But not in a way of stopping myself from speaking my opinions, simply in a way of rethinking and likely changing my opinions since there's clearly something wrong about them if they effect people so badly, after changing them, there is no need to speak them and thus it isn't a case of shutting myself up. Does that make sense..?
    And, you bring up the question of "how would you know your statement is wrong without confronting it with others?", by confronting it with others, of course. Then, if others are effected by it, the former paragraph is followed. I never said anything about never speaking up or forcing oneslef to be quiet, but Cailan already has experienced others believing their statement is wrong, so what you're ssying isn't really relevant.
    And, yes, of course the speaker's intent behind speaking up is relevant. Of course they mean no harm most of the time, that's good, but that doesn't mean they should throw away what others say to them that may disagree with the speaker's opinion, just because they didn't mean to offend anyone.
    Basically, all I'm saying is that starting this potential debate doesn't personally seem like it'll amount to much good, but, if it does start, both sides should try to be open to the other's theories and suggestions. To put even simpler, I just really don't want this to get out of hand... :confused:

    Also, let's not continue this, this thread isn't meant for arguing about my set of beliefs, but, instead for calmly discussing Cailan's. No need to be so argumentive and aggressive.

    ---------- Post added 26th Jan 2017 at 10:18 AM ----------

    *argumentative, god, I suck...
     
  4. Irisviel

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    Aggressive and argumentative? If you prefer to call it that way. But it's you who told the OP to shut up, because they know already that *some* people are offended by their views, so obviously *some* are going to be offended here, therefore, the OP should not speak and be guilt tripped into thinking they are wrong and a bad person, because "they hurt people". Come on. There is always *someone* offended when *any* opinion is stated. Even you are offended by mine, because you clearly thought of my argument as "aggressive".

    I perceive your idea of feeling guilt every time someone else doesn't like your opinion to be appalling (and therefore should be offended, and therefore you shouldn't speak it), because it means you will get guilt tripped every time you face someone who doesn't live with a factual mindset. Every time you face an ideology driven person and they get offended, regardless whether you agree with the ideology, you will need, by your logic, acknowledge your views hurt some people's sensibilities and therefore, not speak and change, even if you KNOW you are FACTUALLY right.


    So, I am not going to sit by and not speak against trying to make the OP feel guilty before any act was committed, especially that acts of speech can be debated, hammered out and brought to a satisfactory conclusion, or peaceful disagreement, more often than not.
     
    #24 Irisviel, Jan 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
  5. SiKiHe

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    Having a rational discussion can cause growth for all those involved. Even if no one changes their belief, they might better understand how another side looks at the topic and in turn they may be better educated when facing the topic again. Another important thing here is that OP has said this would be an unpopular opinion. Those reading now are all aware that OP isn't trying to step on any toes, they just want to express an opinion they have and maybe have a healthy conversation and debate about it. Understanding that going in, those who disagree with the stance on the topic at hand can put aside anger and hostile knee-jerk reactions. Knowing that you will likely disagree beforehand, one can adjust one's mindset and be more open to hearing what the other side has to say.

    for an example, say a theist and an atheist decide to have a conversation on the topic of how religion affects schools. Knowing already that they disagree on the existence of a higher power, they can put that aside and have a healthier discussion about the topic at hand. If both parties just want to learn and maybe inform the other of their stance, the conversation could be very helpful. Disagreeing is not the same as hate.
     
  6. Bobsleigh1

    Bobsleigh1 Guest

    I completely agree with you. And, yeah, I guess, even if nobody's beliefs are altered in the end, it can still be a productive conversation, hadn't really thought about it that way. I also hadn't considered that the people reading the thread starter's supposedly controversial beliefs would be prepared to be offended. I know that disagreeing is different from hate, my aim in posting here was simply to keep things from becoming hate, if that makes sense?
    "If both parties just want to learn and maybe inform the other of their stance, the conversation could be very helpful" this was basically what I was trying to get across in my first post, that both sides should be open to eachothers thoughts and views, that's all.
    I honestly just didn't want this to get aggressive like most threads like this one, although it seems I've done the opposite... ugh, I always do this, I need to stop chipping into conversations I'm not a part of.
    And, in response to Irisveil, if it sounds like I'm telling Cailan to "shut up" I really don't mean to and sincerely hope Cailan doesn't read it that way themself! Honestly, please don't misunderstand me, I want the threadstarter to feel able to speak I just want it to remain as peaceful as it was previously. I suppose my reasons for desperately wanting this to remain peaceful is pretty selfish, it's mainly just that seeing these arguments amongst a community I've never exactly wanted to be apart of anyway stresses me out and makes me wish I was cis even more, but it's not like I couldn't of just avoided the thread so I'm really doing nothing useful by being here (hence why I'd like to just end this...) so I really shouldn't have posted... again, I have so many regrets right now... but, hey, hopefully we solve this...
    I also hope you didn't think I was trying to offend you by saying that no one needed to be "aggressive" or "argumentitive", it's not like I was aiming it at you personally. And can we please just stop talking about this, this isn't the point of the thread.
    (I also know that you're going to accuse me of guilt tripping. I'm not. I'm just being honest so I can leave this conversation sooner...)
     
  7. AlexTheGrey

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    This makes me wish we could like posts. :lol:

    Eugh, the thing is, I'm not entirely sure it's really even born out of confronting ideas though. One of the things I've noticed about the discourse in general is a skew towards talking about people and groups and less about the ideas themselves. We've done things like turn political leanings and groups into slurs to hurl at that group, use behind their back, or signal to others your leanings. At that point, you aren't talking about issues, ideas, or plans, but people. And talking about those people in a way that denies their own agency, thoughts, and feelings about the subject, or even really giving no room to discuss at that point.

    Now, if we take that tendency and combine it when we are talking about things that some people see as a core part of their identity, I can see how it can make dialogue difficult if not impossible. Especially with how hard it is for everyone to disconnect the idea from the people, or applying judgements on people based on the ideas they espouse.

    Honestly, while I think we could have constructive dialog as long as the focus is on ideas, I'm less optimistic when so many discussions I've seen on politics devolve in similar ways to personal attacks on people and groups. And if politics are having a hard time, when discussing identity, it gets even harder to sort things out. And there's individuals that have written things that are damaging enough to the discussion already, and introducing areas of the discussion where it is raw from those accusations, psudeoscience and statements leveled at trans people.
     
  8. Just Jess

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    The OP does not have to participate if the OP does not want to.

    I engage directly with people that don't like trans people, don't believe we really exist, and even get into situations where I don't have the high ground, like talking to people who detransitioned, who have lost husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, sons, and daughters over stress caused by one of us being trans. We do not exist in a vacuum. It is very important to be supportive, especially places where young, alone, terrified, and vulnerable trans people are, or those of us who are hurting. We are all we got, our being family makes it possible to live. But there is no such thing as a perfect coming out or a perfect relationship. The truth always hurts like hell, and doesn't just hurt us. We do step on toes. We do it because there is literally no room for us to walk, but we do. Lesbian seperatists that went so far as to buy property far away from society so they could be away from anyone that made them feel like they had to put out to survive and that that was all they were good for, they have valid reasons for not trusting me right away. The most hate filled bigot in the world is a human being, not a demon. They can not always be reasoned with, but I can always approach them with empathy, and I have found that opens a lot of doors when I do. There is, in short, no such thing as a trans related topic I am scared of, and I at least won't "flip out" at the OP or anyone. This may not be the best place for some things, because people are going through all manner of fucked up in our day to day lives and are coming here to get away from hell for just a few god damn minutes. So if you are going to self censor, that should be why. But don't put that on us. We are not snowflakes, trust me. Snowflakes would have melted 10 seconds into being us. We are diamonds, and anyone that sees us and mistakes us for snowflakes would not last a day as us.

    So all that said I think us discussing how to react with loving kindness is a very good thing. A "defense against the dark arts" thread can do a lot of good. And I think every one of us, even though we are trans, has ideas we are afraid of sharing ourselves. I personally have been working to get past my own agism, it is something I hate about myself.

    So let's talk about how to talk to Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists. And any of the other people that make being us a terrifying, invalidating, frustrating thing.
     
  9. BrookeVL

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    Like Jess said, I can handle unpopular opinions. I'm not a special snowflake and am actually pretty hard to offend.
     
  10. Vincentt

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    I live in an area full of conservatives whose opinions do not often align with mine. And I have learned to respect them regardless, and to hear their views without being hurt. I would rather live in a society with people who openly disagree with my opinions - however closely-held those opinions might be - than live in one where people are afraid to offer an opinion that differs from the norm. Many far left liberals might throw stones at me for being able to tolerate different mindsets - even ones they might deem "offensive" - but I don't care. Speak your mind, OP.
     
  11. Cailan

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    Okay, I'll tell you the one that pisses people off the one I believe is most explosive a topic/view. I don't want to insult anyone, but this is how I feel.

    I don't believe transwomen should be called "women," or transmen should be called "men."

    *waits for explosion*

    Here's my thinking, for those who are willing to read my logic.

    Many CIS women see it as insulting. They were born with the parts (or most were, anyway, there are always exceptions) and went through the entire experience of being male or female. If you dye your hair dark and get a really good tan, you can't say you feel deeply that you really are a Native American or African American or Hispanic - unless that's your genetics! I don't see how it's okay for someone not born genetically male or genetically female can claim a sex (man or woman) if they weren't born that way. Similarly, the intersex do not want those who are surgically altered via metoidioplasty to call themselves intersex. If I can't call myself intersex after my surgery (which I don't want to anyway), why can a transwoman be called a woman after surgery?

    The media does not help the public image at all, primarily showing the most femme of transwomen as the example. Which causes CIS women to see trans women as a cruel caricature of themselves. A joke. When my husband came out this was the first image that went through my mind, thanks to acculturation. When I found out he wants to dress in plaid shirts and jeans, no/low makeup, tennis shoes, etc, and has no/low interest in dresses or heels or makeup, I was thrown for a loop. I didn't even know there was another option for transgender individuals! I didn't know there were non-transitioning trans folks out there who live happily without changing their bodies at all. I didn't know what non-binary was (I never heard of it before a few years ago, and therefore had no idea what the heck I was and what those feelings I had inside meant). We really need to get out there and make sure the world knows the huge variety that makes up what is transgender.

    I'm planning to go through testosterone and surgery to get a penis, but that can never make me a man, because I don't know what it is to be physically and mentally a male during childhood, to be treated as a boy, to go through the physical growth of a boy. It's a whole experience that forms the person. A transgender person can only be what he or she *thinks* it is to be a member of the opposite (birth) sex. I know what my body and mind *thinks* it is to be male. But is that really what it is? I don't know, because I've never actually gone through the experience of being male, growing up male, in a male body to become a man. I know my mind will be happier if I can experience physically and hormonally what I think it feels like to be male, but I would never, ever call myself a man, even if I find the testosterone and penis are exactly what I wanted this whole time, and never want to go back to my life as a female.

    The new young generation of folks who are allowed to begin transitioning in preschool may change my mind in the future, for those individuals.

    And there are always exceptions. People who are born intersex, which to my understanding is a physical malformation, not actually trans, though it has been treated as such because so many were incorrectly surgically altered so their natural minds don't match their bodies. And people who are born XXXY or XYY, or other variations. Those are rare and unique cases that have causes different from the cause of transgender.

    Around the world there are cultures that have long, long ago adopted cultural norms that have places for the transgender. Those cultures recognize them as an entirely separate gender. The Fa'afafine of Samoa, for example, are considered to be women in many ways. When they dance, the take part in the women's dances, not the men. Sex between a Samoan man and a Fa'afafine is considered to be heterosexual, not homosexual. They have a woman's role in their parents' household. Yet Fa'afafine do not dress in women's clothing. They do not marry, and they do not claim to be women. They are Fa'afafine. (yes, there is also a female to male version, but I forget the title).

    I believe that instead of fighting for trans inclusion as being the same as a CIS man or a woman, we should be fighting for recognition for new genders - the transman, transwoman, bi-gender, agender, etc, and their total inclusion in society in a manner that does not threaten the identities of CIS men and CIS women.
     
  12. Vincentt

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    ^ I understand that perspective, and it's one I wrestle with in my head often. I identify as a man, but is that the same as being a man? Can I call myself as such, if I never experienced boyhood, or being acknowledged as male for the first 20 years of my life? Is it identification that defines my gender, or is it experiences and biology? Do I have the right to call myself a guy, if I was not one in the eyes of science and society?

    The thing is though, when I do transition, I intend to go stealth. I don't want people to label me "trans man", though that's what I am. I accept that I am trans, but I abhor the fact. I just want to live my life in the same manner as a regular male. I am not the same as a cis man, and I have not shared their collective experiences, but I don't want to be held separately or looked at as "different" because of that. I mean, I'm aware that I'm not the same as them, but shouldn't I be able to live and be acknowledged as though I am, if I so desire? The alternative, being considered "third gender" does not appeal to me at all. I want to be seen as an average man because it's what will be the easiest and most comfortable course of action for me. I'm not arguing against considering trans people a third gender, but more so asking what the implications of that will be, particularly for people who want to live stealth as I do.
     
  13. Bobsleigh1

    Bobsleigh1 Guest

    (To Just Jess and ClusterGazelle) Pretty sure this was in response to what I said, right? Uh, alright. But my aim wasn't really to defend people from getting offended like most of you seem to of taken it as, I know everyone here is capable of having this conversation without "flipping out" or getting offended.
    I literally just meant that I didn't really think this would amount to much without evenually getting heated (which may be wrong now, since it seems that Cailan's controversial opinion isn't really that bad at all) so maybe it could end up being counter-productive saying the opinion, but it shouldn't be like that, they should be allowed to speak without being attacked, so both sides of the conversation should really consider what the other side is saying and try to listen and understand the different points of view in order for it not to get heated at all. That's all I meant, It wasn't like a "I must defend my trans children from all these words, oh noo" I literslly just went "yo, let's be civil" with a little of me knowing that I was likely going to end up a part of the conversation and didn't particularly want to be "attacked" either.
    So, yeah. I know I talk about a lot of irrelevant and unnecassary crap when I write sometimes, but this ones really got people confused on my intentions, huh? :grin:

    Anyway, I'll actually say something helpful and on-topic now.
    As I mentioned, Cailan, your opinion isn't that bad and I can completely see where you're coming from. Transmen are different from cis men, it's two pretty different and yet similar things to be, same for women, but in the end people can call themselves whatever they want. If it makes a trans person happier to call themself a man or woman then they should be allowed to for that exact reason, they're doing no harm afterall. Or maybe someone identifies as just man because it'd out them if they didn't, maybe they want to be stealth or maybe it's dangerous for them to be out. I see what you mean, but we shouldn't get to decide someone else's labels for them.
    It seems like maybe the people you shared this with last were possibly trying too hard to be impressively PC and "attacked" you in the process.
     
  14. Mihael

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    Of course each to their own, and "trans" is a concept that ties together many different things, but experience of being female is the thing I lack, against all odds. I honestly feel like a fake woman, like it's a shell, an empty word only. I've been a guy all along. Not because I want to, and not because society sees me as such, which it doesn't, and not because I have a male body or will have one in any degree, and not becaus I experience dysphoria, which I don't. That just is. There are a lot of things that are not obvious at first glance, but which constitute the "filling" of reality. My three cents. What makes a man or a woman, or what makes anything, is a philosophical question, though. And I think what you're just describing might be just your own experience, Calian. Not everyone shares it.

    I would be happy if I could be recognised as someone of masculine gender and female sex, so I guess something like the "third sex" you described. But what my doubt is, is that new categories would create new norms and standards in which people wouldn't fit in...I don't know if creating more categories wouldn't be counter-productive, and if it's not a better stance to allow everyone to just describe their experience and accept that. I'm also against multiplying concepts without need. Gender can be described with references to womanhood and manhood only (because it is the root of gender itself), not dividing it into cis, trans, bigender or whatever. Still, a non-binary gender would be useful, I'd just lump everyone together, because non-cis people make up a smaller percentage of the society together than cis women or cis men alone. Some trans people wouldn't be happy being considered non-binary as well, so I don't know how it would work out. Nevertheless, I feel like the Western society is lacking a plausible space for those who would happily be non-binary / transgender.
     
  15. A Wanderer

    A Wanderer Guest

    In a perfect world I'd agree with you completely, Cailan. I still think there are ways we can be more respectful to cis folks, like considering their fears and finding solutions that work for everyone. Working together is the only way we're going to move forward.

    I'm not in a position to proclaim my biological sex without getting a significant and negative response. Even if I was, I think it would just freak people out. I don't want my coworkers to feel uncomfortable around me and there are no gender neutral restrooms in my workplace. My family and friends might also face a fair bit of ridicule, which is totally unfair to them. Going stealth is as much for me as it is for those around me. I want everyone to feel safe and comfortable.

    But I don't butt in on issues that have nothing to do with me either, like birth control and abortion. I do think women have every right to organize events that exclude biological males and I suppose that goes for men too. I am going to stay away from anything that involves public nudity for the rest of my life. I think that if I'm going to present myself as female, I should probably put the opinions and concerns of biological females ahead of my own. That's the way I've always seen it. There is a way to live a normal life without stepping on people's toes.

    This is just my opinion and I don't enforce it or encourage others to share it. Please don't break my kneecaps. Ha ha... *Slinks away*
     
  16. Eveline

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    All women have different experiences depending on their life circumstances. A girl in one country experiences life in a drastically different ways than a girl in another. The words woman and man don't denote having specific experiences that are shared between people. They are means of identification that helps people charictarize and understand one another. As a woman, I don't want to be viewed as a trans woman because it does not help people understand who I am and how I want to be seen. This is something that can be hard to understand when you are non binary because your identity is reflected in the word bigender. In my case, the word trans woman does not represent my identity, the word woman does.
     
    #36 Eveline, Jan 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
  17. SiKiHe

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    Honestly, I perfectly see what you mean Cailan. I think many trans people think about it. Some trans people go stealth after their physical transition. To some of them being trans could be considered more like a birth defect [for lack of a better word, I know that's a harsh way to put it]. That transitioning corrects there malformation and they can live life as they wanted to all along. For other trans people, being trans is a part of who we are. The struggle to understand is a badge of honor we can wear with pride, and even if they fully transition, being called a transwoman or transman is their right of passage now. They worked so hard, why be called ust a woman or man?

    I think it is more case by case. some trans people knew since young childhood they were different and tried to behave accordingly. Others don't realize it until much later. So my opinion on trans people being called "men" or "women" boils down more to each person's case. I think if someone wants to be stealth, and if they can then that's their business.

    As for NB identities, yes. We need to try and get NB people recognized. We need better education on what kind of identities there are, maybe better words or titles in the future [so far I only know of Mx. instead of Mr. and Mrs/Ms.] But part of that is just time. Society doesn't change overnight, it takes a bit more fighting than that. But I think in time we'll get there.

    Thank you for sharing your opinions with us, I'm sure with your experiences in the past that was difficult.
     
  18. Eveline

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    To further expand on what I said, as someone bigender do you experience the world as a man and a woman or as a trans man and a trans woman? When you ask trans women to identify as anything but women you are aaking them to do the second option. The identity bigender loses any meaning the moment you view it as anything but being both a man and a woman. The word bigender represents something specific and it loses its meaning if you take away your ability to use the word man as discriptive of your experience which you are doing when you say that trans women shouldn't be allowed to identify as women. I mean why call yourself bigender if you don't experience the world as a man? Why should anyone call you bigender if the word has no real meaning as you have taken out the word man from the equation?

    That's something that's important to understand in my eyes, there interdependance between recognition of trans women as women/ trans men as men and the acceptance of non binary gender identities.
     
    #38 Eveline, Jan 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
  19. WarmEmbrace

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    The grander question here is who are we. Are we our bodies or are we our minds ?
    If you admit that the core of who we are is our physical body then yes I can see your point of view. However i strongly disagree that the core of who we are is our bodies.

    There's a video on YouTube from the School Of Life channel who debates this very issue at length, philosophically. What are we. Are w e our physical bodies? Are we the collection of our experiences and knowledge ? It finally goes though a lot of explanations and reasoning (which seems quite sound) and reaches a conclusion that the core of who we are is not our physical bodies, and not even the sum of our knowledge and skills, and what we trully are is in fact an avatar of our core life principles. Hence if my life principles that are more feminine in nature, I am a woman, and the physical aspect of it, the chromosomes have only a marginal role and cannot influence that. They only dictate the biology of my body, but my body is not the core of me, it is not my essence :slight_smile:.
     
  20. Zoe Izumi

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    I agree with there being no 1 male or female experience. If you mean puberty, we DO experience that when/if we get HRT and go through a second puberty. It won't be 100% the same, but we DO get that experience.

    I also believe we are not, strictly speaking, our bodies, we are our spirit/mind which pilots our bodies. I am a spiritual person however and recognize there are others who aren't.