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Disagreement with the trans community

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Cailan, Jan 24, 2017.

  1. Cailan

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    I avoid a lot of conversations in the trans community, to avoid alienating people. I don't happen to agree with *certain* choices the trans community has made for use of language and identification, and choices of political attack of others. Part of my disagreement comes from my experience as a cultural anthropologist (college degree and 10 years' field experience), and part from my own personal experiences.

    I am getting very frustrated that any disagreement with the current "norm" is the same thing as attack and hate of the trans community. I've been accused of being "inhuman," a "TERF" and "ignorant."

    I simply think it's being done *wrong* but it does need to be done - a cultural realignment that provides a healthy cultural place for trans individuals in the larger North American/European culture, something that many other cultures have. And I also completely believe the protections need to be there, and that there is rampant abuse of the trans community and trans individuals that needs to be addressed.

    It's getting very frustrating that I can't talk about those topics with open disagreement without someone getting angry and hurt. I'm not even going to post them here because that would almost certainly turn this thread into an open battle, which is NOT the intent of this thread.

    I just want to find a place where people can discuss these issues without emotion or rancor or insult, a purely academic, facts based debate of ideas and observations. Oh, and I escaped the academic world, I am NOT about to go back and write a thesis or study for peer review. I'm just not in that place these days.
     
  2. YeahpIdk

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    Your frustrations are unclear because you're not stating the actual issue/argument. I think you can feel safe to do that here, and maybe listen to what others have to say without feeling attacked for your views and ideas - simply because ones' views are not always correct.

    If what you argue does cause a lot of issue in the trans community, you may want to take a step back and reevaluate your position based on the upset it causes.
     
  3. Cailan

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    I have listened. And while I understand the point of view espoused, I disagree with it. Even my husband and I go round and round of some issues. On other issues he agrees with me against the popular opinion.
     
  4. AlexTheGrey

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    I really don't know what to say, honestly. There's not a lot of substance to actually talk about in your post. But it also feels more like you just need to vent on what you see as unfair treatment by others in the community based on your post.

    But, for my own part, I'm not surprised things can get heated when how people identify themselves and define themselves is a core part of the discussion. Especially when you have what feels like others telling you what is okay for you to do and what not to do.

    But considering what academia has done to the trans community in the recent past, a "purely academic, facts based debate" tends to make people think of folks like Blanchard who claims the same position, but has biases flying every way out of his research. So I'm not too surprised that people would be touchy on that front as well.
     
  5. SiKiHe

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    Differing opinions are fine. We're all human and we all have different experiences and understanding of the world. Regardless of what is being said I think attitude and context matter the most. If you are wanting insight on what other people thing, or are wanting to just share an alternative opinion, then I don't see why anyone would attack you for that. As long as it's presented as just a different standpoint and not as an attack on the common stance. There's no reason on either side to try and tear someone down or to use insulting language in a harmful context. Now debate is a different story but from the sound of it you're open to the idea of debating on topics. that's the difference between "You're ignorant and your stupid and this is why this is nonsense" vs. "I don't really agree with you, and here's my take on the subject"

    I see no reason why you couldn't bring up different, unpopular viewpoints. If people are attacking you for that here on EC, it might be something to bring up to the admins and mods.

    There is also an idea of picking your battles. Some topics you might find you disagree with, but if you notice there is a lot of heated feelings around that for either you or the community, it might be best to at the very least wait until some time has passed when you, or the general public may have calmed down some and would be more capable of expressing and trading ideas in a calm and intellectual manner.
     
  6. Kal

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    None the wiser myself. Expand if you want a healthy discussion or simply outline it's a vent? It doesn't take much to confuse me of late.
     
  7. Cailan

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    It's not here on EC. It was on Facebook, when I dared to disagree with a person with whom I have been Facebook friends for years. I was attacked by pretty much everyone, even though I carefully outlined my argument as "this is what I believe." I'm not out on my Facebook page, so everyone assumed I was coming from CIS POV. The one person who did know decided I was all the more evil for it. Sigh.

    We all pretty much did a mutual unfriending.
     
  8. SiKiHe

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    I'm sorry to hear about that :frowning2: Still, if they would unfriend you over an opinion that's pretty sad, and it sounds like they might have other problems. Well if you ever want to bring up unconventional opinions here, I'm sure you'd receive much better responses. At the very least a respectful ones! The community on here is usually very supportive.
     
  9. Irisviel

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    There is not really anything like a trans community, I mean we all come from different backgrounds and I don't like to play identity politics this way.

    Unpopular opinions. You probably mean opposing the ideas of gender social constructionists and the non binary "spectrum". My advice is, if you are affraid to say what you mean you will never have a debate nor escape the mental cage. Ideologues are not going to be friends with you anyway and lying in order to pander to them makes no sense. Either anti science approach based on non factual ideologies are argued against with science and facts, or you let them make you feel stuck. At least that's the vibe I'm getting. And if I'm to take the beating for saying it for you, whatever. I'll take one.


    edit: or actually not. You ID as bi gender. So how the hell anyone would associate you with TERFs? I mean If anything, your side of the debate that I critize is as far from the terf ideology as it gets.
     
    #9 Irisviel, Jan 24, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2017
  10. Cailan

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    The person who accused me of being a TERF suggested that I am only pretending to be bi-gender, for whatever reason she thinks I might do that. She used the word "claim." Even though she knew about my bi-gender identity before this argument started. She accused me of such because I do share some bits of social ideology with the "TERF" community. Not a lot, but one or two distinct ideas she couldn't separate from TERF assholery.

    I am not exactly known to be a wallflower when it comes to debates. I've actually been featured on a CNN newsmagazine, twice, for a different issue (discrimination against atheists). Perhaps I am too aggressive sometimes, though I usually am careful what kinds of words I use and my aggression is more of a debate aggressiveness, not a verbal abuse aggressiveness. And yes, some of my opinions may actually be offensive to the community. I'm that way on most issues, though. I don't think inside the box, anyone's box! I find both sides usually have a piece of the puzzle, and I find the connecting piece that puts it all together in a manner that pleases no one. I generally manage to offend someone, usually people on both sides of the issue.
     
  11. Just Jess

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    If I read you right, and let me know if I have not, you would like a safe place to talk about our political approach and the way we go about talking to people that are not trans? In which ideas will be considered, fresh, even if they are different from approaches we already take?

    If that is the case I would like to say that we have two things working against us as a community that I can see. One, is that being trans cuts across all lines and lives. We can't expect every trans person to be a terrific public speaker, to have the patience to have the same arguments over and over, to be persuasive and to show love in the face of hate. We have lives and loves outside of being trans. Each of us is good at different things. The other thing that works against us is that some of us are louder than others. You and I don't get to speak for the community. People read from news sources that reinforce what they already believe, and that is where they get their news about us. They don't have any interedt in getting things right because to them it is just ideas. This information does not benefit them just like calculus 3 doesn't benefit most people. You and I need this stuff to be accurate because we have to build lives on top of what we know that actually work, especially in the face of adversity. This information benefits us.

    So I think it is good to have a good, open, honest discussion about our approach. We definitely do need to keep love and people treating each other with dignity and respect as goals. I just think that while we do so we need to understand the reality of our situation and be realistic about what we can do.

    So please go ahead. Some people may disagree with you here but I trust this website enough to say that they will explain their reasons for disagreeing rather than being dismissive. And who knows, some may agree or, better, learn something from you :slight_smile:
     
  12. Irisviel

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    but we're not a community. Just a demographic.
     
  13. Rickystarr

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    I'm also very curious to know what controversial opinions you could possibly share with a TERF as a non binary individual.

    I'm sure you could bring it up on here if you did so in a respectful, delicate manner. Otherwise I personally wouldn't.
     
    #13 Rickystarr, Jan 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  14. Cailan

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    One of them is so wildly opposite from the usual trans perspective that I don't think there is a respectful, delicate manner that wouldn't send some people off the deep end. The rest aren't quite so extreme, I've had support from other individuals in the trans community.

    And when I say "trans community," yes, there is one. We're existing in it right now. Our internet connections, support meetings, friends it's a community. Communities don't always agree entirely on every issue, but yes, it's a real thing.
     
  15. Irisviel

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    I can't believe PC culture is so strong now that people are affraid to speak their mind or even confront ideas. Confronting ideas is the only way to make progress. And apparently even someone who identifies as non binary, thus already belonging to the progressive/PC camp by the very choice of the label, even someone like that is affraid to say something "in case someone reading it gets offended".

    Really... just say what's on your mind otherwise all you write is a futile exercise in producing vague statements.
     
  16. Hats

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    Sometimes it's not about being PC, but a balance of harms.
     
  17. BrookeVL

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    I personally would like to hear these theories.
     
  18. SiKiHe

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    I won't lie, I'm very curious now as well. Even if I disagree I'm interested in how other people understand all of this.
     
  19. Zoe Izumi

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    I'm curious as well about what they are.
     
  20. Hats

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    Me too.