While I'm waiting for the kitchen floor to dry, I'd like to think out loud here and ask your opinion. All of us are drawn to the site because we have some pretty fundamental questions about who we are. We wonder about our sexual attractions and identities, etc. We want to find our true selves and live honestly. We try on various labels to see of they fit. We want to sort it all out. But I'm not entirely convinced that there always are the kinds of answers we're after. Mainly because I don't believe that there is a "unified" self to which I can be true. I think that what we call the self is actually highly unstable, constantly shifting, a whirlwind of thoughts, desires, fears, etc. A "becoming" rather than a "being," as some philosophers have put it. Now, I'm not looking for an escape hatch. I think I'm homosexual, have lived in denial of that, and will be better off when I am completely honest about it with myself and others. But I do think it's a waste of time and mental energy to wonder about my past sexual relationships with women. I know that I was every bit as homosexual then as I am now, but I also think that the desire, sexual pleasure, and romantic bond I experienced were every bit as real and important as the homosexual desires I was repressing. I was hiding a truth about myself, but not necessarily the truth about myself. And the reason that matters to me now is that all of those non-sexual aspects of who I am (or who I am becoming) today are just as real and important as the sexual aspects. I have noticed a tendency here to treat coming out as a more or less predictable series of "stages" and, at least implicitly, to suggest that the ultimate goal is to get from point A to point B. I see how that model can be useful to people, but I think it's a bit too simplistic, and even "normative" to use that dreaded word. I'm not at all certain that I'm looking to arrive at point B. I know a psychotherapist who told me that her goal isn't to answer questions or solve riddles. All she can do, she said, it help people learn to tolerate the uncertainty of life and live with the anxiety that produces. I think my floor is probably dry by now.
It's almost 3.30am so I'm not capable of an intelligent reply but I'd say that it is the uncertainty is what really troubles me. In an ideal world, no declarations would have to be made, sexual preferences flutter about like a bag in the wind with no fear of anything. As it is the idea of having to label myself is he biggest frustrating. I'm far too unsure of my mind to work out what I want to eat in the evening, let alone how to brand myself for life. This is part of the reason I've stuck to the default. I agree that if you accept yourself as you as, there is no point in focusing on past relationships and experiences. But surely for most people the focus on the past comes from pondering the significance of the experiences on the current you. Whilst sexuality may be fluid, I'd say the feelings you had a minute ago, or last year, will generally correlate to the feelings you have now/tomorrow and therefore generally shouldn't be completely discounted. If you can accept that even whilst identifying as gay you have feelings towards girls, past and present, and you aren't striving to eliminate them, then you've reached a sexual enlightenment most people can only dream of!
@wrhinla I agree with what you are saying about hiding a truth about myself not necessarily the truth about myself. The key words being 'a truth'. The non-sexual aspects of me are still the same - well better from therapy but still the same me regardless of the issue of orientation. What does looking at my past relationships help me understand about the present me? Given the acceptance of the truth I was hiding - that I am lesbian. It helped explain some of my actions regarding the opposite sex. I treated many men as just a thing. I used them as much as they were using me - they wanted sex and I wanted to prove I could be straight albeit unconsciously at the time. If I didn't accept the truth about myself and look back at my past, I wouldn't get the full understanding of who I was and why I lived the way I lived. I would still be thinking of myself as a 'player' or someone who purposely hurt a lot of people that may have had true feelings for me. Now, I can forgive myself. It doesn't change the fact that I lived how I lived. It doesn't justify it and it goes against everything I believe in how I am supposed to treat people. But it allows me to know understand the younger me who was fighting within herself all those years. If I didn't face that, then chances are I could repeat the same mistakes and would. That is just a facet of anything we do in this life - we have to evaluate what we have done as not to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Thanks, gaslight88. It's a challenge, that's for sure. I certainly haven't reached that sort of enlightenment yet. I feel at the moment that I don't need to have sex with women ever again. Might I feel different tomorrow or next week or whatever? It's possible. But I'm trying not to worry about that because at a certain level I think it holds me back from completely embracing my homosexuality, which I think is my most important priority. I have often wondered whether my sexual confusion was a cause or an effect of the more general ambivalence I so often experience in life—e.g., I do or don't want to commit myself to a particular project, to pursue this or that particular goal, to stay in or go out, etc., etc., or to have for dinner, as you say. I agree bunnydee, that we can and should learn from past mistakes. I think that there’s a high probability that my heterosexual relationships were usually short-lived at least in part because I was not heterosexual, no matter how hard I tried to believe I was. And I tried very hard. Being gay was simply out of the question. I succeeded in deceiving myself and others, but I would have been much better off if I had not been so successful. What’s weird is that even before my divorce was final, I was filled with a desire to find another woman. I was perplexed by the absence of any trace of homosexual desire. I dated several women and quite liked a couple of them. I think now that it was a good thing that nothing went anywhere, although I’m sure they would have been short-lived relationships in any event. I would have ended up in the same place I always ended up, secretly wanting sex with men while keeping up the appearance of being straight. ---------- Post added 1st Jan 2017 at 10:15 PM ---------- BTW, bunnydee, I posted a reply to you on your wall (I think).
If what you're saying is that you are always your "real" self whether you're in the closet or out and whether you're struggling or at peace then I agree with you. I am comfortable with that ambiguity in myself. Even so, a lot of people are comforted by the goal of finding their appropriate niche and then associating with others who fit in that same niche. More power to them.
I can relate to that. I had spent years fantasising about being with a woman. The minute it looked like my marriage was in trouble, my attention started shifting back to men. I believe it was a last ditch attempt by myself to cling onto the security of having a man in my life, the strong instinct to opt for familiarity over the unknown.
How I judge my wants and feelings is based on a predefined set of social codes presented to me first by those I love, then society then media and mainstream prevailing thought. Simple; why did you mop your floor and then wait for it to dry? Why is it that point A: Mop floor. Point B: wait for floor to dry? Why don't we live in a culture where the acceptable thing to do is have your kitchen floor constantly wet? Like, the greater the waterworks in someone's kitchen, the more status he/she has? Point A: Dry floor Point B: wait for it to get wet again. And practicality has nothing to do with it; Brazilian waxes aren't practical! But they are certainly acceptable. The self is really like chipping away at a massive hunk of material to find the essence of the sculpture residing within. It's the act of navigating through the presets and norms that becomes disconcerting and slows everything down. I know what I'm after but it's different than most people and extremely difficult because it actually challenges both cultural norms AND the thought of being led by human desires. But that's my spiritual experience which I'm living out. It's how I'm chipping away to find my essence. It's different for all of us; some prefer a more human experience as opposed to spiritual. Acceptance is the key to happiness in so many ways. I'm here because I am questioning the acceptance of wanting to be with a woman as a life partner as opposed to a man. Which paradoxically will set me to 'unaccepted' by mainstream thought. How will I define this for myself? Will it be acceptable to me if it is a sexual union? An asexual, non-sexual life partner? Am I going to live in a Boston Marriage type of relationship? Or, am I going to decline this choice altogether with a positive healthy attitude which brings happiness? Meanwhile, I also have to navigate those other three forces: family, society and mainstream prevailing thought.That's how I got to this site believe it or not, searching these types of topics on the internet.
There are models for coming out and grieving the loss of one's heterosexuality which includes stages and going from point A to point B does involve progressing from the beginning stage to the latter stage, though the progression is not always linear. Here are two models with stages of coming out that might be helpful to give you context. Empty Closets - Stages of Coming Out http://emptyclosets.com/forum/lgbt-later-life/202581-8-stages-coming-out.html The Kübler-Ross model is also relevant with its 5 stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. Fighting the model (and yourself) is part of the process. My guess is that you are a bit of a control freak and attempting to resist the model is your way of attempting to exert control over this scary process and revelation. Unfortunately your attempts to fight and resist will only prolong your suffering. All emotional pain is caused by resistance to what is. Your fear comes from your internalized homophobia and shame about being gay that you learned as a child. You must heal your internalized homophobia by unlearning the lessons from your upbringing where society, church, friends, and family taught you that being gay is evil and wrong. Being gay is who you are, and the sooner you can love yourself the better. You have full control of the process. You can dip a toe in and flounder or take the plunge, learn about the models, and navigate them successfully. The choice is yours.
Thanks for linking to these stages, it's been a while since I've looked at the stages of coming out and i feel like I'm able to more clearly see where my journey fits into these stages. In your opinion, do you think people sometimes move back and forth before getting to the final stage? I think I want to spend time looking st this and thinking about my journey a bit. This is great food for thought.
Yes - progression is very nonlinear, so there can be some back and forth. Given that you are out, you are more likely caught in the DMZ between accepting and loving yourself. I feel that coming out is just the beginning of another process of discovering authenticity, a process that may not be fully captured by these models. You can think of this as the process of going from Stage 7 (acceptance of gay self) to Stage 8 (celebration of gay self) of the second model. This stage is about undoing the damage of being in the closet once you are out and further accepting yourself as LGBT. We've spent years lying to ourselves about our sexuality, and this casual relationship with the truth has ripple effects throughout our lives. We're not overweight, we just have a few extra pounds. We'll lose them in January, no problem. At some point you'll stop listening to your own bullshit and discover clarity in truth, at least that was the case for me. Of course these models don't capture the process of separation and divorce, which adds another layer of complexity to your situation. My advice remains the same - push yourself to do the uncomfortable, feel the fear and do it anyway, keep calm and carry on. The act of doing something outside your comfort zone will expand your comfort zone, reduce fear, and help you fully love yourself.
Friesian: I don't think the subjective workings of the psyche have anything in common with waiting for my floor to dry. And I don't think that there is an "essence." That's my point about "becoming" rather than "being." There is no final arrival point; there's only the search. The search ends only when we die. SiennaFire: I'm familiar with those models. They are what I am objecting to. As I said, I see why people might find them useful, but I find them a bit too pat. I think that denying my homosexuality has had particular consequences for me, but I don't feel especially "damaged" by it. I don't believe that my mental health would be significantly different if I had been openly gay for the past 40 years. My therapist and I discussed my sexual orientation at some length, but it wasn't the most important topic. My resistance to my sexuality was related to other aspects of my psychic life, but it wasn't the underlying explanation for everything. My interest in the elusive, and perhaps illusory, character of the self goes back to my experiences with LSD in the 1960s & 1970s. It was nurtured by readings in literature, philosophy, comparative religions, psychoanalytic theory, cultural history, myth, and social theory, among other things. Self-understanding is the dance of the seven veils. For me, learning to accept a world without absolutes is liberating.
I think you are my twin! :roflmao: Really though thank you wrhinla. You have helped me so much. Just wanted you to know you have made a difference.
You don’t? “the psyche is the center of thought, feeling, and motivation, consciously and unconsciously directing the body's reactions to its social and physical environment (which is predefined for you no matter how much you want to believe the rules are pat)....well, no skin off my back. Funny, because the philosophical definition of essence is a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is. If you are constantly becoming then you have not yet become anything. And if you ‘are not’ then you wouldn’t be writing on this forum...or breathing for that matter. Wait, what was your point? I went on a date with a philosophical, overly intellectual boy once who thought that the pinnacle of his psychic enlightenment was seeing dancing trolls in a cave whilst on an acid trip. I wasn’t impressed~
I don't know about dancing trolls, but I can't think of any philosopher (or artist or poet or mystic or whatever) of the past hundred years who subscribes to the definitions you refer to.
I agree, what I'm feeling is a really strong desire to get to the celebration stage, but I have those few emotional reservations and life constraints which make that difficult to bring to fruition at the moment. In the last couple of weeks I feel like the emotional barriers have been crumbling, though and it's starting to be just the life constraints in the way. I know I can't fully live until we're separated, but I can be proud to be gay, I can enjoy meeting people and spend time with supportive folks and be part of the community. But my progress will really be more fully moving forward once I'm in my own place and the separation is more official. This really resonates with me. I feel like I'm peeling back those layers but by bit as well. It's surprising to see how far that casual relationship with the truth goes. I'm surprised at how much about myself I've not really been honest about, how deep he performance goes. Definitely the separation adds another layer of complication. It has made me decide, maybe for the first time, to really fight for myself, my truth, my own needs, in a way I don't think I realised I could. There's no way o would break up my marriage unless it was at the sale of something deeply important, and it's made me confront that question, is my truth that deeply important. And I can finally see that it is, and that this is true for me but also to live as an example for my daughter. And your advice to feel the fear and do it anyway, has helped me so much along the way by the way. Thank you. I'm going to keep doing it, there's still alot more progress to be made. ---------- Post added 3rd Jan 2017 at 12:49 AM ---------- *bit by bit ---------- Post added 3rd Jan 2017 at 12:49 AM ---------- *I; at the sake of
Thank you for sharing yout thoughts. I am struggling to understand my past. I don't deny that I have been attracted to men for a long time, but I also know that I have been attracted to women and have had satisfying relatuonships. But I have also struggled and know that perhaps my main underlying problem with my ex wife was that she could not provide what I truly desired. But I still struggle trying to figure out am I bi or mostly gay? Anyway, perhaps you are right. We should just accepy those past experiences for what they were and move on and stop playing mental gymnastics.
While you are entitled to your opinion, your ambivalence for the models and your referring to yourself as a homosexual suggests that you are still exploring and understanding your sexuality. I hope that you continue to participate on EC and therapy with an open mind such that you begin to understand that these models represent the process that people experience when coming to terms with their sexuality, which can be a useful guide for your journey if you were to decide to leverage them.
Hmm. This is an interesting thread. Here's my two cents: I spent over three decades in the closet. And not just in the closet, but in denial and hiding. I made both conscious and unconscious choices during my life to hide my homosexuality. I did this in both small and large ways. I suppressed my homosexual desires and my behavior. I made efforts to hide and used behavior modification to hide everything about myself that I thought looked "gay." I repressed things about myself in order to fit in and not look "gay" to people. It is totally impossible for me to say that my denying my homosexuality didn't have any particular consequences or that it didn't damage me in fundamental ways. What I have discovered after coming out six months ago, is that I wasn't even aware of all the ways that I suppressed the real me - and my personality, aspects of me that are just now beginning to surface. As I have been letting go of the "straight" me, I have discovered so many ways that I altered myself and my personality in order to hide being gay. I would submit to you that until you do come out and begin to shed the "straight" mask you've donned, you can't really know what parts of you will surface - parts that you've been hiding. Your thoughts here may change after that happens. Take care. ride:
