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Never-ending desire to be straight?

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by sguyc, Dec 11, 2016.

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  1. Creativemind

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    The level of internalized homophobia here is astounding. I would suggest therapy. I do realize that gay men are attacked for their masculinity and face a unique social stigma that others in our community may not. But everyone is discriminated against for something. There are more discriminated minorities besides gay people, so It's not like all straight people can avoid such heavy problems if they also happen to fit a minority. Not everyone is going to have privilege, It's best we just learn to deal with it and find our own happiness.
     
  2. Patrick7269

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    Totally agree, Creativemind. All pain is relative, and being human means that there will be some pain.

    Internalized homophobia is a unique challenge for most gay men I think, but to varying degrees. We usually distort our perceptions of life because of it. When someone not living fully because of it it's time for an external perspective from a therapist.

    Patrick
     
  3. Patrick7269

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    Totally agree, Creativemind. All pain is relative, and being human means that there will be some pain.

    Internalized homophobia is a unique challenge for most gay men I think, but to varying degrees. We usually distort our perceptions of life because of it. When someone not living fully because of it it's time for an external perspective from a therapist.

    Patrick
     
  4. Patrick7269

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    Totally agree, Creativemind. All pain is relative, and being human means that there will be some pain.

    Internalized homophobia is a unique challenge for most gay men I think, but to varying degrees. We usually distort our perceptions of life because of it. When someone not living fully because of it it's time for an external perspective from a therapist.

    Patrick

    ---------- Post added 22nd Dec 2016 at 09:47 AM ----------

    I really really REALLY agree! So I posted the same thing three times. Or I was just having network problems and shouldn't have hit submit three times. *lol*. Sorry for the duplicates.
     
  5. sguyc

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    Actually my family is completely accepting of me and so is everyone around me I haven't experienced any ill feelings or shaming language in my adult life. It doesn't change how I feel. How I feel is from observing how others interact, how they group together, and who is offered what kind of respect, who is admired and who isn't. Who has value and who doesnt.


    And this has nothing to do with "privilege" a concept I find quite destructive and one that is wielded as a cudgel to beat down the majority with guilt so the minority can grab more of whatever it wants and pretend they are just, regardless if they deserve it or not.




    My life would be completely perfect if I was born a normal male. But I was crippled with this disposition.

    ---------- Post added 23rd Dec 2016 at 03:59 PM ----------


    Ok youre right your relationship is perfect and all your straight friends are jealous lol. You can tell yourself that if you want. Women faghagging and complimenting their gay friends doesn't mean they respect them like they respect straight men. Its obvious in social situations.

    Straight relationships have more drama because there is more at stake, more intertwining dynamics, dual forces of femininity and masculinity clashing and conflicting while also complimenting. They are more complex and more interesting and with that comes more "why is everything so difficult I can't understand (men/women)!". Gay men have simpler motivations and most gays aren't even interested in relationships until they get older.
     
    #25 sguyc, Dec 23, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  6. Creativemind

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    I think you misunderstand the term privilege here. I wasn't using it to play oppression olympics or to "bash the majority" at all. I was using it to say that some people have it better than others in various things in life, and you can't stop that from happening. The fact that you feel you don't get respect proves my point. Everyone is going to feel disrespected for something.

    Yes, straight men get more respect than gay men. And men get more respect than women. White people get more respect than black people. Rich people get more respect than poor people. Thin people get more respect than overweight people. "Normal/healthy" people get more respect than the mentally ill or autistic.

    Everyone is bullied, neglected, and ostracized for something. You are hardly unique in that regard. The fact that you are accepted means you have it easier than most gay people in life.

    ---------- Post added 23rd Dec 2016 at 02:13 PM ----------

    How do you even define masculine or feminine? A burly bear kind of guy can hook up with a twink or a crossdresser, so there. Two men, yet one is stereotypically feminine.

    Is it how the genders act or think? I'm a woman and I think more like a man in most ways. Even my Dad says I have a dude brain, but I don't identify as male. So I guess my brain can counteract with another woman's stereotypically feminine brain despite both being women.

    Be grateful you don't have to deal with the bullshit straight couples put up with. Do you really want to have to deal with taking the initiative all the time, having some women force you to pay for dates, risk having kids when you don't want to if the woman lies about taking birth control? Risk losing children you wanted because abortion is only the woman's decision in this society? Have to deal with annoying gender roles and have zero freedom about expressing your personality unless you risk a woman dumping you for a "real man"?

    Straight relationships are boring, limiting, full of drama, and unsatisfying.
     
  7. Patrick7269

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    Great points Creativemind!
     
  8. sguyc

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    "Be grateful you don't have to deal with the bullshit straight couples put up with. Do you really want to have to deal with taking the initiative all the time, having some women force you to pay for dates, risk having kids when you don't want to if the woman lies about taking birth control? Risk losing children you wanted because abortion is only the woman's decision in this society? Have to deal with annoying gender roles and have zero freedom about expressing your personality unless you risk a woman dumping you for a "real man"?"

    Yes all of that sounds fine. Forcing yourself to take the initiative is exciting, challenging. Yes it sucks in some ways. Getting rejected is hard. Building yourself into a man that does not crumble at the first sign of female disinterest or disdain is a lifetime kind of thing. Learning how to handle girls takes time, a lot of time. The guys that fall behind and don't learn what girls really want certainly struggle. Girls don't care if you pay for dates lol, they care if you are attractive and "paying for dates" is just one pathetic example of trying to signal your level of attractiveness. Girls don't really care about that kind of stuff, its a cherry on top of whether they already are attracted to you or not. You know the thing that motivates that socialization? Its largely to get off. As a guy you either develop those traits to become attractive or you settle for being hardly anything. I only developed a lesser amount of those traits because I had no motivation to chase girls. I mean that is part of the thrill of straight relationships. The man is a castle and the girl is looking for cracks in the wall, probing, seeing if she wouldn't be better off with another castle.

    Everything is a freaking gender role. You think transsexuals don't operate within their own gender role that is heavily informed by the society around them. Everyone has an idea about how a man should be or a woman should be. It just so happens that the majority of the population decided "a man is this" "a woman is this". It isn't inherently anymore restrictive than being "genderqueer" and picking and choosing what you want. The whole point of "expression" is to feel good, and most straight guys feel good being masculine, vice versa for girls. Its just natural. Its not a restriction.

    And what is more, its a fantasy. Gay people don't get to live outside gender roles anymore than straights. They just accept the hammering of value that comes with such actions. People who live outside of gender roles, on average, loose value. They choose to have less value to live outside gender roles and (to stereotype, obv not everyone) be all flamboyant.




    "How do you even define masculine or feminine? A burly bear kind of guy can hook up with a twink or a crossdresser, so there. Two men, yet one is stereotypically feminine."

    Its funny that you believe this. But let me tell you that in fact the vast majority of gay relationships are femmes x femmes and masc x masc. See virtually all gay guys that aren't at all bisexual or aren't old guys excited by youth are attracted to MASCULINE guys. Including masculine gay guys. They all want masculine guys, the femmes and the masculine ppl. But the masculine guys aren't attracted to the femmes so they hook up with each other. The femmes can't get what they want so they settle for femmexfemme relationships (usually both are bottom and get frustrated because neither one REALLY wants to top, but they do it out of duty to keep the relationship alive).

    The masc guys too all want to bottom. They are all searching for a guy MORE masc than themselves. If you go on ****** 90% of the "ripped studs" wanna bottom. Its all so stupid, none of them are COMPATIBLE. Unlike women are men, who are for the most part very compatible (submissive straight men mess that up though lol, virtually NO woman is sexually turned on by a submissive man).





    You may have a "dude brain" but I assure you that you still sucked up that female socialization all the same like a sponge.




    Also I am not claiming to be unique in my depression over status. But I take issue with this line of reasoning that "if only! if only... society were more accepting all the gays would live happily ever after. They just need to be allowed to LOVE WHO THEY WANT." It completely ignores the other negative issues that come with being gay that aren't related to whether or not people "accept" you.






    Masculinity and femininity are defined by the physical and behavioral. Ya you can be a feminine male. Your value will be low. The only ones that escape that are very passable transsexuals and they are very rare. Most transsexuals don't pass. You can be butch girl but you won't be very masculine compared to men. Just like crossdressers and femmes aren't very feminine compared to actual girls.
     
    #28 sguyc, Dec 23, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  9. snarky baboon

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    I think you're missing the point and I'm confused as to where you're getting your information from. You've got a lot of positivity and valid, honest points being thrown at you. I'm so glad that you have supportive people in your life bc this sort of backwards thinking would be even harder to deal with otherwise. Honestly, you had me feeling pretty poorly about myself for a minute. You tickled so many sneaky little homophobic fears that I've felt in my life. I totally get it. And yes it is totally different for gay men with heteronormative stereotypes but it isn't any less prevalent for gay women. I grew up and live in a small rural community. I'm expected to be a sweet, submissive mother and wife to your apparently ideal masculine man who gets to be loud, obnoxious, promiscuous?, and aggressive.. that's sounds like the back drop for a horror flick in my eyes and yes it's incredibly restrictive. Men and women are not solely just masculine or feminine anyways, which is seems like you get but I think you're confused as to what makes a man a man. I have a brother and a father and countless other men in my life and I hate to break it to you but they sound nothing like the "men" you describe. My brother also happens to have a gay friend and a bisexual friend(both men) who hang out and go to straight bars all the time just like "normal". They even talk about relationships. This is hick town might I repeat (nothing wrong with that, just a lot of funny looks going around). My uncle grew up working a farm, served in the air force, came home to work sheet metal, suuuper "manly", came out when I was six to his ultra-Catholic parents after he was jumped and beaten into hospitalization for his "crippling disposition" (you're right, it was crippling at that time, both of his legs were broken) aaaaand still stayed with the same man for over fifteen years until his partner passed leaving him with their three handicap children and his senile mother to care for.. that's a man. And sure I know immature boys who 'game' girls and talk vulgar, but that is no man and they don't actually get any respect. They are seen as childish and malnourished in social etiquette. Straight women do not find that attractive or endearing by the way, they all want the sensitive dude who tears up during Marley and Me. But they sure as shit want you to pay for dinner too. Also let's not fantasize about this drama filled relationship where the girl is trying to find something wrong with the boy before she moves on or however you see this magical straight relationship. No relationship should be like that, gay or straight. That sounds like a castle built on trust issues. If working hard for a relationship, making the first move, learning what your partner really wants, learning to deal with rejection, and building yourself up makes you a man then I think you've just contradicted yourself there. I've only ever been in hetero relationships and for me that would be the easy option. Fly under that gaydar and enjoy all of the privileges, yes privileges, that come with being straight. It's so much harder and scarier to delve into and build a life that I have no example to work from. It also makes me a boss. You know what makes you a strong person, or a strong man? Living your truth unapologetically. A man doesn't need the respect of his peers as long as he has his own. A mans value is immeasurable but to that man. No one can put a price on you. You are not a slave except to your own negative thoughts. I would think you would receive more respect for being bravely gay and choosing to love yourself even when you find it hard, rather than lathering up in self loathing and showering it into your world. I know being gay seems unnatural (I was taught homosexuality was perverted, equivalent to pedophilia) but it is truly unnatural to work so relentlessly hard against your own happiness. There's nothing unnatural about following your heart, the butterflies in your stomach, or your wildest fantasy. The only thing keeping your life from being as perfect as you believe it would be is your way of thinking. When you value you, the people who don't won't matter bc you will always be more important than them. I hope you can find the courage to love all the parts of yourself, and be open enough to letting someone else love all of those parts too.

    ---------- Post added 24th Dec 2016 at 02:41 AM ----------

    I didn't say thank you, but thank you! Reading all of these was a beautiful reminder of how truly PROUD I am to be myself, smothered in self love and suuuper duper gay:thewave:
     
  10. KayJay

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    I know it sounds stupid but honestly changing your thinking can change your life. I'm learning that myself now. You should find a therapist to talk this all out with and work on identifying the ways you think that need changing. CBT is pretty great.
     
  11. Creativemind

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    Once again, you completely miss the point of my reply. I wasn't implying that gender roles by themselves are bad, that most people "avoid them completely" or that gay couples don't have them. The point is that in hetero relationships, they are extremely restrictive to an unrealistic extent and end up hurting the parties involved. That's why you have the toxic masculinity in straight culture with all the bottled up emotions and higher instances of misogyny and violence.

    I am proud and happy to follow some female gender roles, but I'm also glad that I don't feel as restricted in gay relationships. I can choose what I want or don't want to do in my relationship since It's not so clearly defined. You don't need to get rid of gender roles forever or be completely GNC to get my point. The point is that both genders have some qualities of masculinity and femininity and and to limit people's behaviors is restrictive.

    Though not all hetero relationships are even the same. Some women wear the pants and dominate their more passive boyfriends, and that works for that couple. Even hetero relationships are not a 1950's stereotype, especially not these days. Some straight women do prefer submissive guys, It's just a minority and is found mostly in fetish communities.

    Sure, I have some female socialization, and I don't see why It's a bad thing. It's partially why I prefer other women, since we at least have a common ground. I don't know why I'd want someone who's so much more different than myself, especially since male socialization is extremely toxic. Probably the biggest part of my socialization is just that I'm more aware and sympathetic toward sexism, though I'm not passive and I don't let others get away with whatever they want. I'll call them out on their bullshit.

    Even straight women don't really like men who have "high value" from their definition. Most of them are sexist pigs who think they can do whatever they want to women. I know from being a woman that most "girl talk" is complaining about sexist straight men and can even get a bit misandrist at times. Most women at least what a compassionate guy, although there is a boundary on how far it can go.

    ---------- Post added 24th Dec 2016 at 08:36 AM ----------

    *at least want
     
  12. snarky baboon

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    ^^^^ word. You always get to choose how your relationship works. That should be whether you're gay or straight or somewhere inbetween. You can interpret those gender roles however you choose. Traditional, conservative upbringing taught me that a man takes care of his family, works hard, is respectful, generous, strong, and brave. A good woman takes care of her house, her children, also works hard, supports her partner, is generous, brave and respectful. Those all just sound like VALUABLE guidelines to being a good person. I'm not sure why I can't be all of those things or do my best. You are human before you are a man or a woman or whoever. So be a good one. I don't see what could ever stop you from being valuable if you just continue loving the people who are important to you and who obviously support you. That's what makes a good relationship or might I say a love to be in envy of. No one actually cares what you do in the bedroom. It's who you are through open doors that matters.
     
  13. sguyc

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    " I would think you would receive more respect for being bravely gay and choosing to love yourself even when you find it hard, rather than lathering up in self loathing and showering it into your world. "

    Well you would be wrong. No one respects "bravely" gay people. They are just laughed at behind their backs instead of to their faces because its not as PC anymore to denigrate gay people to their faces. Even gays value super gay acting gays less than straight acting gays.


    Definition of what is valuable in a man has shifted greatly from the time of your parents to our time. Girls don't value the same things in men in 2016 as they did in the 60s or 70s.



    "Even straight women don't really like men who have "high value" from their definition. Most of them are sexist pigs who think they can do whatever they want to women. I know from being a woman that most "girl talk" is complaining about sexist straight men and can even get a bit misandrist at times. Most women at least what a compassionate guy, although there is a boundary on how far it can go."

    You can be as sexist as you want if you are attractive and have the right energy as a male. Girls will eat it up and ask for more. Psychologically girls just follow the attitudes and conclusions of the most alpha guy in the room.


    " Straight women do not find that attractive or endearing by the way, they all want the sensitive dude who tears up during Marley and Me."

    Is this a joke? lol thats not what girls want. Girls don't like weak sensitive men. They like alpha guys who OCCASIONALLY display sensitive qualities (very occasionally). This is simple biology. In nature the female mates with which ever male beats the shit out of his rival the most thoroughly. Humans are only slight divorced from practices like that. Those ancient practices just show up in different ways in our human mating dances.


    "There's nothing unnatural about following your heart, the butterflies in your stomach, or your wildest fantasy."

    It really depends on what your dreams are. Some dreams are definitely unnatural and unsurprisingly those tend to be the ones the don't ever pan out.





    "I know it sounds stupid but honestly changing your thinking can change your life. I'm learning that myself now. You should find a therapist to talk this all out with and work on identifying the ways you think that need changing. CBT is pretty great."

    Therapy is only good for feeding delusion and challenging you to ignore the world around you and create your own fantasy world. Its actually can be quite damaging to trans people.

    ---------- Post added 24th Dec 2016 at 02:06 PM ----------

    " Traditional, conservative upbringing taught me that a man takes care of his family, works hard, is respectful, generous, strong, and brave."

    I can assure you that girls do not think of those qualities when they are deciding which dick to jump on from their ***** profile when they get bored or want some validation. And that is what 2016 is.

    ---------- Post added 24th Dec 2016 at 02:13 PM ----------

    I'm in a relationship right now and its completely unsatisfying outside of a personal level. Its unsatisfying in public, among friends, on vacations. The only part that is satisfying is the personal. But guess what only a portion of our lives are spent cooped up at home, the majority is in the real world. So I disagree. "Love" does not automatically make a relationship enviable or satisfying. Successful relationships are so much more than that and they absolutely incorporate comparisons with other people, other relationships, how you "feel" walking down the street with your partner, if you feel proud, if you feel hot together, if you feel others see your relationship as something valuable that they would also like to have. All of that matters and helps both people feel joyful to be together.
     
  14. Creativemind

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    Jesus christ, check your misogyny at the door, dude. It's obvious that you don't know how real women act and think at all. If anything, the positive hing about you being gay is that women won't ever have to put up with all of this narrow minded talk on "what they want".
     
  15. KayJay

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    Meh. Just seems trolly at this point.

    Good luck figuring out what you need to do to be happy dude.
     
  16. angeluscrzy

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    in the end, whatever your perceptions of society, you can't control anyone else's opinions or actions. What they do, how they feel about you, is pretty irrelevant. We are responsible for finding our own happiness, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna be on my deathbed wishing I had lived my life the way "the majority" thought I should.
     
  17. sguyc

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    Why are you anymore qualified to say what women want than myself? Have you read the minds of every woman on the planet?

    Remember, women don't like "nice" guys.

    Not that it matters. This topic wasn't about women. But you made it about women, shrug.

    ---------- Post added 24th Dec 2016 at 05:51 PM ----------

    What I said about therapy is true. therapists lie to trans people all the time and set them up to fail I have seen it first hand many times.
     
  18. Creativemind

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    Pretty much all women want a compassionate guy. "Nice guy" is slang for a guy who thinks he deserves to get in your pants by pretending to be nice and your friend. But he'll always react with anger, entitlement, and coercion if you aren't into him. Women are talking about assholes who pretend to be nice when they say thwy don't like "Nice guys".
     
  19. snarky baboon

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    I think you're still missing it bud. Part of what your talking about is a relationship(which should be based on mutual love love love obviously) and the other half is hooking up. The reason I mentioned my parents old school values minus the misogynistic bs is bc although they are outdated gender norms I can still relate them to my experience. As far as what you think women want, you're off. Yes of course I was being playful but I don't know if you hang out with many straight women.. They most certainly want a man with sensitivity. Number one thing girls complain about is men being sexist, hands down. That and being completely absent minded(just not giving a shit) Believe me, I could never understand why my friends would be gushing about how sweet it was that their boyfriend cried during a touching movie or spent the day gardening with their grandma. That's the least of it, women eat THAT up and ask for more. But that to me seemed like something to appreciate in a woman right? Like I thought they wanted a man, might as well be dating a woman. But that's just me being greedy. I think many women don't experience being respected enough and they get caught in a cycle of empty casual "relationships" looking for.. ding, ding, ding, validation. Yes girls will hookup with the loud-mouthed muscle man but that's not who they marry. If they do they generally try and course correct those character flaws. The fact of the matter is people are really just animals, true. All animals go through different developmental stages. Young adults are designed to be f****** and reproducing, yes, which is where mating rituals have developed from. You could go as far as to say young men are designed to be dick driven assholes and young women insecure codependent sluts. But we also evolve and have the gift to see the bigger picture. You should probably look up all of the creatures on the planet with dominant females or homosexuals. There is absolutely a place in the animal kingdom for gays, they actually serve a purpose despite not being able to reproduce with one another. Nothing is black and white. Whole lot of gray. 2016 is a confusing time for sure. Yes a portion (a big one) of society puts a high value on being this stereotypical uber masculine specimen. We've built that up for centuries not only based on what is a natural animal instinct but also based on logic. Physically men are generally stronger, giving them extra power to dominate and during times with less technology that strength was survival. Women following men and idealizing strong ones was survival. However, the very earliest human civilizations (closest to our animal instincts I'd say) did not have the gender equality issues we do today. Men and women were seen as equally as valuable for what they brought to the table, so basically just seen as people. That is our true nature. It wasn't until technology and accumulation of wealth that the balance was thrown off and men were more valued as the stronger sex. Those ideals are breaking down right now. You're just stuck in the middle of changing tides which is uncomfortable because even when people are supportive and positive it can seem insincere. You may see it as someone trying to appear to be a cool suave progressive person with no real belief in their words (I.e. liking a fb pic or saying how jealous they are of your relationship). But know that even those people are challenging themselves to think outside the box they were born in and challenge the preexisting beliefs ground into their lives. Of course people give fake or half-hearted compliments. They are trying to normalize something they don't understand and nobody wants to look like a douche. But the point is that people now realize that it is wrong and unacceptable to belittle someone, in this case, on sexual or gender orientation. Proof is in the fact that it is no longer "cool", "popular", or "PC" to denigrate a gay person to their face. Im sorry that I revel in the small victory that some people are being persuaded to be ignorant in private. As far as super flamboyant gays being valued less by other gays, well you can speak for yourself on the matter. I'm not sure what your definition of value is or what makes a valuable human, but value is subjective. If there was a measurement for human value then we would still have slaves. And you're right relationships are a lot more than just falling in love and sailing off into the sunset. That was my whole point; relationships are work. Work to find your balance. Work to be comfortable with each other. Work integrating that person into your world. That would include the "real world". In doing so you're gonna have to work to deal with people's opinions about your relationship. That's part of the deal. Straight people have that too and everybody loves to gossip and judge people's love lives. Since I have more straight people around me that's actually all I ever hear. "She walks all over him", "they're only together bc he knocked her up", "he's only with her for convenient p****", "she just uses him for money", "they ended up with each other bc theyre too fat for anyone else" jeesh the list goes on. They'll be judging you no matter what. Unless you've asked for relationship advice from someone their opinion does not figure into your relationship. You don't ask a third party who pays for dinner or if you can hold your boyfriends hand in public. It's a question between the two of you. How comfortable am I with this? So what I meant was that hard work, loyalty and unapologetic dedication makes an enviable relationship. Staying true to someone and working to be with them, however tough it is, is what's enviable. I'm glad you're in a relationship that is satisfying on a personal level. However, that satisfaction you find in the connection with your boyfriend doesn't die when you walk out of the house. You can be surrounded by people but you'll still be able to find a home in that connection. So stop putting so much value on others people's reaction to your relationship and more value on your relationship, your happiness and his happiness. After you've gone home they will not be thinking about the gay couple they saw earlier, ain't no body got time for that. They don't need you to worry about them either. Live in your present. Focus on you not what's happening around you. The more you start being grateful for your experiences the more things you'll find to be thankful for.
     
  20. Creativemind

    Regular Member

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    Yeah, I think you don't know any straight women. Your perception of them is based of media and what sexist straight men think women should want. On the other hand, I am a woman who befriends straight women, and they tell me the opposite in our talks. They just feel they cant admit want rhey want to men since it's a man's world. Women are told to shut up and suppress their desires, so they only share them with other women.

    ---------- Post added 24th Dec 2016 at 04:08 PM ----------

    Also sorry for the typos. I'm on my phone.

    ---------- Post added 24th Dec 2016 at 04:10 PM ----------

    * What they want
     
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