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Never-ending desire to be straight?

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by sguyc, Dec 11, 2016.

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  1. sguyc

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    I see a lot of guy people act like this naturally goes away after some milestone like coming out, making gay friends, or having sex, or being in a relationship.

    But what are you suppose to do if it never goes away even after you have "heard it all".

    You still don't like being different from the majority of society in such a fundamental way. Maybe I am missing something, but it really sucks. I don't really see a way out for myself personally. Part of me has just accepted I will feel like this until I die.
     
  2. Patrick7269

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    In my opinion you're getting a sense of the price of being authentic. You get to be true to yourself and live a life that's right for you, but you also march to the beat of a different drum. Coming out gives you a few things and takes away a few things as well. If you value integrity as one of those things you kept, then good for you.

    I remember my last long-term relationship ending in the winter of 2012. We were kind of limping along through the holidays so that we wouldn't have to break up during such a festive time, but the handwriting was on the wall. I remember him lying in bed next to me so close that I could feel his breathing, and yet knowing that we might have well been in different universes. With this beautiful guy that I loved just inches away I had never felt so alone in my life.

    Now, if I had had stayed closeted, I could be married to a woman, and every night I would lay next to her in bed. Could I distract myself to avoid the feeling of isolation? Could I not drink, do drugs, or think of other unhealthy ways to avoid that pain? As hard as it was to be with the wrong guy for a brief time, I can't imagine how it would feel to be married to a woman (wrong for me) for years or a lifetime. And how does it feel when part of the pain avoidance strategy was to have kids?

    I'm not here to tell you that all is well and being gay is easy. But you do have to accept the pain that comes along with the journey and make the journey so awesome it's worth the pain. You can also be proud of yourself that the pain you are feeling comes from a vantage point of authenticity and pride in who you are, and not a dark closet - with lots of monsters.

    The other simple answer is to look around at people who just aren't as fortunate. I have so many other things in my life that are blessings that I focus on them when I feel being gay is too much. It's trite but true.

    One more thing - get your butt down to Roscoe's in Boystown. Shoot a game of pool for me and look at all the beauty in the men around you. :slight_smile:

    *warm hugs*

    Patrick
    Seattle, WA
     
  3. sguyc

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    Thanks for responding to my post. I respect your viewpoint and I think your viewpoint holds value for many people, everyones different.


    Price? Ok yes its a price. But its not a price I chose. Straight people don't need to "choose" how to be. Actually, I don't value integrity. Well I do. But not in individuals for individuals stuff. Like if its someones "true self" to wear assless chaps everyday, no im sorry but I don't value that guys "integrity".

    You bring up "value". And I think it is such such SUCH a key word. I am happy you brought it up. I think it is the most important thing in the world for happiness, to feel valuable. And I don't feel valuable as a gay person, lgbt or whatever. I don't feel valuable, and it doesn't matter how attractive I am to gay men or how "valuable" I am treated by the lgbt community. It feels empty to me.

    What is there to feel prideful about? How are you suppose to feel pride in being a less valuable male? In having everyone think of you as "gay man" instead of "man". And well its really not about what other people see, but its about whats inside you and feeling inferior and valueless. And being in awe of feminine/masculine ying/yang dynamics that can only be replicated in pathetic charicatures for gays.


    Ya i've been to Roscoes. Honestly I am so done with gay bars. They are such silly weird places. I go there to people watch and watch everyone prance around all these guys mindlessly looking for dick or hanging with their fag hags, I see no value in it.
     
    #3 sguyc, Dec 18, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
  4. Iliricon

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    Why would you feel less valuable? Being gay does not mean you can't lead a "boring normal" life and be awesome at everything, job, art, sports, whatever you like.
    If you don't like how others treat you for being gay, then simply don't tell them. Not everybody needs to know, and if people get to know you as e.g. "the great painter" then they will not stereotype you much if they find out later that you are also gay.
    And yes, queer bars and gay spaces can be really weird and frustrating. I feel like many gay men have the mental maturity of 14 year old in search of a nice p***y, only with dick. It sucks. But, I'm going to have to say this: not all Gays!
    Price? Yes, you did not choose this, believe me, I would not have either. But many people have to deal with issues they did not choose or want to happen. We all have to make the best out of what we are given. And the price we pay is not always ours to choose.
    And lastly: do only "female/male" dynamics give value to something in your life? Then get a girl friend (not a girlfriend) and be awesome with her. OK, that won't fix any Sexual issues, but seriously, Sex can still be great without a female in it.

    Have you considered therapy? I don't mean a qack who tells you that you can be straight, or one who forces "being gay" down your throat, but one with whom you can work on the deeper issues here? Just a friendly suggestion :wink:
     
  5. sguyc

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    Too much therapy. Therapists can never relate to me, I find it pointless.

    Ok, I can't be normal. Because normal guys are straight and they fuck women and talk about girls and game girls together. That is what most normal (valuable) men do. Gay guys always have something off about them that prevents them from engaging in this kind of stuff. They always have a femininity about them, in their essence that straight men do not. It doesn't matter if you tell someone or not. Because that is the first thing people want to talk about, either directly or indirectly, fucking, fucking women, dating. You can't hide from those subjects and why would you want to? There is a reason those subjects are so often talked about in all cultures everywhere, because sex, love, and desire are exhilarating. But its only exhilarating when its celebrated when you feel valuable for chasing it. And when you body aligns with your desires.

    I find masculinity and femininity to compliment each other. Masculinity with masculinity makes me cringe. Keys go in locks. Handsomeness compliments beauty. Petiteness compliments tall stature. Curves compliment muscles. This is how I feel. When I said "female/male" I meant sexual and romantic dynamics, not friendship. ALSO. Nearly ALL female and male friendships between similarly attractive people have sexual tension. So even being friends with a female as a gay guy is not the same as being friends with a female as a straight guy.


    I don't feel valuable because its not valuable. I can't reproduce with a male partner. I can't have anyone admire our relationship. I can't travel and just be a normal couple travelling. I can't have kids and just be normal parents socializing with the other parents kids. I can't have kids and raise them normally with a mother and a father. I can't have normal friendships with straight couples. So many things make me feel unvaluable.
     
  6. Patrick7269

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    sguyc,

    You've used the exact words I've been searching for to describe my struggle to accept being gay; I've posted something similar to your question here. Last night I was thinking about this very question and I realized that sexuality is a wonderful mystery because it's every bit as much spiritual as it is physical. In fact, I think it's miraculous because it unifies spirit and matter through procreation. When you think about it as a gay man the natural question is why am I not able to take part in that miracle?. By extension of that, we assume that we're defective.

    I think there are a couple of dynamics going on here.

    First, I believe that we are a mix of masculine and feminine. Just as it took both male and female to create us, we are each (at a spiritual level) a unique amalgam of male and female. You mix the spiritual energy of the father and mother, and you get a unique spiritual energy of the child, like a hereditary trait. For a physical analogue if you mix hydrogen and carbon, you get one of an almost infinite number of types of carbohydrates.

    When we're attracted to someone, I think it's because there is a spiritual, energetic force that seeks balance. Much like connecting the terminals of a battery to light a bulb, or like water releasing energy as it flows downhill, our relationships create an exchange of energy. We yearn for people and relationships that balance and complement our own spirituality.

    So what happens when sexuality, a very complex spiritual phenomenon, is expressed through a physical body with one of two genders? I believe this is why some of us are gay, bi, transgendered, or just curious. I also believe that the complicated mix of male and female energy inside of us is why the Kinsey Scale is basically a bell-shaped distribution between total gayness and total straightness. We are complicated, bisexual creatures being shoehorned into simple labels.

    My point - a lot of pain, confusion, guilt, and shame results if your spirituality and physical gender don't conform to how we traditionally see them. That's because we traditionally see sex as physical rather than spiritual.

    Second, we're in a cultural age of a declining toxic masculinity and an emerging masculine-feminine balance. Men who are angry, power-hungry braggarts (*cough* - Trump) are revered by those who adhere to a "traditional" masculinity, but reviled by those who identify with a newly emerging masculinity that's protective, decisisive, selfless, and undeniably loving and tender. We're moving past the simple view of what a "man" is into something that is more nuanced, more tempered, and certainly more humane. In a nutshell I think some of your squeamishness about being a gay man is also squeamishness about being a good man in today's age of toxic masculinity.

    What does all this mean? Only what you make it mean. You could think of yourself as a victim if you want. But to me, I'm trying to see myself as having the gift of self-awareness and learning that comes from being different. I'm trying to appreciate that I'm much more than a physical gender or sexual taste. If you take this journey constructively (and accept the pain that goes with it) you can learn and explore things that many "traditionally straight" men only have some vague insecurity about. And believe me, with the complexity of sexuality I've described above, there are plenty of men who don't feel secure in who they are.

    In one way, we as gay/bi/trans/queer/questioning/courageous men prove that there is much more to sex than the physical body. We prove that sexuality is as much, if not more, of a spiritual experience as a physical one. You could feel honored that in the human race you were gifted to learn and help demonstrate that, to help evolve a more healthy masculinity, or to teach others a profound truth about sex that they might have never otherwise found.

    But to be that gay man with beautiful, authentic masculinity, you have to become comfortable with yourself, and you have to let your true self be expressed in the world. I believe that masculinity is beautiful because it's elemental. It can't be reduced any further. It's a basic building block of the spiritual universe, like hydrogen is to the physical one. Masculinity can't be faked, replaced, or changed. Please don't resent being gay because it's probably an expression of your unique, most elemental, masculine self.

    *warm, masculine hugs*

    Patrick
    Seattle, WA
     
  7. sguyc

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    Ok I read your response. I agree with the first paragraph. As for the spiritual side of what you are saying, I will say I am not one for spiritual explanations, I do not think in those terms. But I still they are valuable representations of how people feel. But I think at their core such spiritual motivations are actually simple biological motivations forged, honed, and quenched by human socialization. This means that they have basis in reality. My point is I think speaking on those terms is not wrong, but its not how I think of things. But our ideas would probably be similar regardless of how we chose to characterize them.


    Now on the points I disagree with you. I think you are committing a fallacy in part of your response and I empathize with why you feel this way, but I still feel its a fallacy. You feel the negative itch, the doubt that comes with being a small minority and so to feel more personal power you try to rationalize "well actually maybe it is much more common, maybe we are all bisexual and I, special old me, is the only one courageous enough to express his inner self". No, I don't believe current lgbt populations are merely the cusp of a queer wave of alternative sexualities (unless you count young girls playing with bisexuality and made up gender pronouns a wave). I believe, what we are is all there is. A very small minority of people that are attracted to the opposite sex. Its that simple. There is no secret underground mass of gays ready to catapult same sex attraction to the level of respect and worship that heterosexual attraction receives. You think straight men are missing out on gay life? What about the opposite. If anything it is us who are missing out.

    As for your bell curve I actually feel it is the opposite. The kinsey scale is bulked heavily on the edges, with a much smaller percentage percolating through the middle. Most gay men like dick, love dick, and only really deep down want dick. And straight men want pussy. Bisexuals are a minority.



    Ok, I think it is important for gay men to own their own brand of masculinity, for their own sanity. But don't ever assume the straight world is going to get on board with such notions. For the vast majority of straight women, straight men, and gay men (yep you heard me) gays are "second class" man status. It doesn't matter how big your muscles are or strong your jawline, taking dick will never be a "masculine" persuit.


    As for toxic masculinity. I love toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity is just shaming language trying to shame men for being men. Men are dangerous, men are fighters, men are aggressive, men are volatile, men are strong, men are loud obnoxious funny boisterous leaders. This will never change, and trying to brand men with alpha characteristics as "toxic" is just shaming language from those who feel insecure that they cannot obtain those qualities that men who they are envious of have (note: I am not attacking you but rather a strawman I have witnesses among many misguided leftist members of our society. I think different people can use "toxic masculinity" to describe different things).



    Frankly if were to be a man, I would want to be the most value man I can be. Same with being a woman, if I was one. And its hard to know that there is an impermeable barrier between such value, being a sexual minority.

    I hope you aren't offended by my reply.
     
  8. Patrick7269

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    Whether characterized as a spiritual thing or not, I think we're in agreement that actual sexuality is much more complicated than our labels.

    As for being a "second class" citizen, that's a social construct external to yourself. You can choose to accept it or not. It won't change whether or not you like men.
     
  9. NoPlaceLikeHomo

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    As much as I'm for embracing your true self and flaunting those rainbows, I can't help but feel a little jealous of straight people, mostly because of the whole not having to come out thing and how much less judgement they receive.
     
  10. sguyc

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    Whether you choose to accept it or doesn't change the affect it has on you though. Its still there even if you pretend it doesn't exist




    Maybe this wasn't the best topic to have here. I admit I am using this forum for my own selfish purposes of stream of conscious. I kind of forgot that it is primarily for teens.

    I really think its an individual thing. I don't think kids should be burdened too much... its all in how you accept yourself and what your expectations are. I just have wildly unrealistic expectations for my life

    ---------- Post added 19th Dec 2016 at 01:14 AM ----------

    For example the times I messed around with girls in college when I was young and hot, I felt much more valuable during those times than anything iv done with guys. Because with guys its like empty, its easy, and culturally its not as important or a mark of success/value. The only people who care about gay relationships are gay people.

    Of course the let down is that you know deep down theres a conflict and a hidden side of you that you have to hide. So the idea that you are straight and succeeding or w.e is false. Plus having sex for ego in the end is more boring than male-male sex for me, because i don't have an inherent desire to fuck women like straight guys do.
     
    #10 sguyc, Dec 18, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
  11. Loveislife

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    I think you're being a little pessimistic here. Not only gay people care about gay relationships. And gay couples can be friends with straight couples. I disagree with many of the things you've said, but I won't take on every point I disagree with. I just wanted to say that my personal experience is that while not everyone accepts or values gay people as much straight people, the vast majority of straight people does in my experience (and that's not just my experience, because my other gay friends - male and female - seem to be accepted and valued by both gay and straight people as well. I have such a huge gay friend circle that I've seen gay relationships being made public on Facebook many times, and every time, that relationship status change received an insane amount of likes... and there is also this gay male couple I know that always posts cute pictures of them together on Facebook, and each time they receive an insane amount of likes and positive reactions as well..). So... maybe the world is a little bit less dark than you might think. :wink:
     
  12. sguyc

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    Facebook likes are not a sign of respect. Have you heard of the term "virtue signalling"? Its where people do token actions to "signal" that they are "virtuous" like liking a gay couple or liking some feminist article or some progressive meme. Its effortless and says very little about peoples real feelings.

    Am I to believe that when a really manly looking transgender individual puts their picture up on facebook and gets a bunch of "omg so pretty" "oh I love you hair!" "you look so happy!" that that means all those people respect this person that essentially looks like a man in a dress? No of course they don't. And OF COURSE they don't feel that person is as valuable as a normal straight male or straight female. In the same way facebook likes say nothing about how gays are treated in society or how others subconsciously view them.


    Also lesbians are treated differently than gay males in social situations. Lesbians don't inherently lose all their value and status as women like many gays do as men.
     
  13. Loveislife

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    I don't believe that people see you as less valuable... I think most straight people genuinely are happy for the gay couple when they like a gay relationship on Facebook (maybe it gets more likes because people respect a gay relationship more because it is seen as harder, but I definitely don't think that most straight people like this to show that they are 'virtuous'. They've got nothing to prove and if they don't truly like it, they can just ignore it. Nobody is policing them to like it and it is highly likely that no one will even notice if they don't.). I think that the vast majority of straight people (when they don't have a religious background or a cultural background that condemns homosexuality) doesn't see gay people as less valuable... to most people, your value isn't (solely) determined by your 'masculinity'. I think that you think that your sexuality is much more of a big deal to other people than it really is. If you're even thinking that when some people reply with positive comments on a trans woman's photo these people don't respect her.. then you're reading too much into it based on your own negative worldview. Of course my opinion is just my opinion, but I as a cis woman do not see trans people as less of a man or less of a woman and I have never thought that way about them. If you keep on thinking so negatively, then you'll just keep on dismissing all the evidence that goes against your negative worldview and then this worldview will never change.
     
  14. OGS

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    I think you're projecting. I think you feel less than valuable and it is easier to think that it's gay people in general who feel that way than just you. It makes it truly "nothing personal". Well, it is personal, because many (I would venture to say most) openly gay men don't feel that way. I know that it's hard to take responsibility for your own unhappiness, but it can also be liberating--it means you can do something about it.

    I think you place an awful lot of emphasis on straight sex. I've been with women. It's fine, but nothing like what I have with my husband. I think it's strange that apparently what you want out of a relationship is children and to be admired. One, you can have kids if you want--I know plenty of male couples who do, not really my cup of tea but they enjoy it. Two, you can be admired as a gay couple. I can say that many straight people, both male and female, single and coupled, have expressed out and out jealousy of the relationship that my husband and I have. It happens, I still don't really think it's the point, but whatever...

    As for the numbers thing, I agree that I think we are a very small minority. But again I don't really see the point. So are really smart people or Jews or Nascar drivers. There's nothing inherent to the statistics.

    And finally, I'm a man and yes I would like to be the most valuable man I can be. For me that means that I am a good husband, a good brother, a good friend, a good provider. That I try to be of service to those who need me. That I try to bring out the best in the people I meet. And yeah, I'd like to be occasionally witty and charming. And you know what? By my count I'm doing alright. Even if I'm not brawling in bars and randomly impregnating women.

    Just my two cents...
     
  15. Loveislife

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    ^ I totally agree with the poster above. I think that you are projecting your own negative views of gay men onto other people. That's alright, I think that a lot of people who are in the self acceptance stage battle with internalized homophobia. However, know that your negative views aren't an objective truth. If you work through them, you can change your outlook on the world and become happy with being gay. :slight_smile:
     
  16. sguyc

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    Well you are exaggerating what I mean about masculine value. All those things you mentioned are valuable yes. Its not all about straight sex. Its about straight culture. I can't relate to the men around me. I can't relate to the women. They are all straight. If I go out "as a couple" I have to be apart of the weird gay couple while everyone else gets to be normal.

    I disagree. Most gay men feel this way. Which is why they hide within their own gay circles, have very few straight male friends, and generally ignore straight culture in favor of jockeying for heirarchy within gay culture. When the young gay guy is more focused on being high value in the gay community he is able to ignore the fact that he has no value in the straight community. Hanging out with a gay crowd in college opened my eyes as to how LITTLE gay men interact with straight men. Instead they incestuously surround themselves with other gays so they can feel more valuable by comparing themselves to those guys instead of having to compare themselves to society at large.

    The idea of "just normal bros hanging out, some gay some straight" is a complete lie, its hardly true anywhere. Sure people have token gay friends. But in general gay men are not like straight men, they behave very differently and this is why the groups rarely hang out together.


    Lol admired? Look no straight man or straight women is JEALOUS of two gays together, give me a break. They are very content with their straight lives and straight dating dynamics. They are not jealous of promiscuous gays. On the other hand gay men are jealous all day long of women and high level attractive straight men which blow gay men out of the water in terms of masculine attractiveness (because attractiveness isn't just how you look, its also how you act and most gay men are submissive deep down and bottoms).



    Ya I can have kids. Then I have to deal with my kids being made fun of for having fags as parents, other parents regarding us as strange and gossiping about our family behind our backs, kids having to deal with feeling abnormal compared to the normal families, just like I do.

    ---------- Post added 21st Dec 2016 at 10:25 PM ----------

    I'm not in a self acceptance stage. I came out over 6 years ago. I was more positive on my outlook of homosexuality when I came out than I am now, because my mind has matured and I can see things for how they really are and see through the bs.
     
  17. Loveislife

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    Yeah.. well, if you want to dwell on your negative views and dismiss everything that might contradict them, then so be it. But I wonder... why did you open this thread then in the first place?

    I agree that gay people can hang out a lot in their own gay friend circles sometimes. However, I disagree with that that always means that they see themselves as less valuable than straight men. As you've mentioned yourself, gay men can be very different from straight men in the way they act, what their interests are (e.g. they want to go to gay clubs instead of straight ones) and they desire men of course instead of women. So... is it weird then that some gay men choose to surround themselves with people who are like minded and who want to do the same things they want to do? Just like straight men do.... Most gay men will probably relate better to other gay men, and most straight men to other straight men. If you're a nerd, geek, American, Muslim, or a member of whatever kind of group, you'd probably like to hang out with those similar to you as well. That does not necessarily have anything to do with what you perceive to be your 'value'.
     
  18. OGS

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    All I will say on this is that it's simply untrue. It sort of makes me wonder if you even know any straight people--very few of the straight people I know are "content with their straight lives and straight dating dynamics." I mean come on--do you even know any single straight women or married straight men? My husband and I have been together for 18 wonderful years--and, frankly, we're amazing together... and people see that. And they're jealous and not in a sort of pleasantly admiring way, they get down on themselves. Over the years I've had to have the conversation numerous times talking them down from the "I'll never have what you have" thing. It happens. It happens a lot. Again I think you're projecting. If you have built a life that no one would admire, it doesn't mean that all gay men have, it just means you have. Do something about it.
     
  19. Loveislife

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    Indeed... The gay male couple I was talking earlier about (the one that got so many likes on their pictures on Facebook) seems to be a perfect couple as well. They're so adorable together, I'm really jealous of them and I have told them before that I think they're so perfect together lol. I am not straight but I don't think that I would have felt any different when I would have been straight... (and I am not a gay man but a gay woman). Anyway, the couple I am most jealous of out of all couples that I know is definitely that gay couple. Sexual orientation plays no role in my view of the 'perfect' relationship, and I think that that is the same for many straight and gay people alike...
     
  20. Patrick7269

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    Out to everyone
    Actually I see things a little differently altogether.

    sguyc, you may benefit from seeing a therapist to talk about your feelings and what you expect from being gay. If you've grown up in a homophobic family or had other sources of homophobia growing up it will affect you negatively, and then this negativity can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're absolutely right that LGBTQ folk are different psychologically, different culturally, different spirtuallly, and often different in our path through life. There are many differences between LGBTQ folk and the rest of the world.

    Loveislife and OGS, not everyone has the same experience of being gay and coming to terms with it. I for one was almost disowned, faced physical violence from my own family, have had obstacles in the workplace, and I've gone through a long journey trying to get over the religious fear and hatred that my father drilled into me. Although it's important to take personal responsibility for ones' happiness, you don't just "get over that". In my twenties (as sguyc is) I was beginning to grieve and understand that these losses are real.

    I don't care whether Facebook even exists, let alone whether anyone "likes" my life. Facebook and social media are about the most shallow and narcissistic mirrors that were ever invented. We like gays on Facebook. We also "like" moronic cat videos, the Kardashians, and live-streamed tragedy. Social media has its place but it provides shallow support relative to the needs of queer self-acceptance.

    Although things are getting better being LGBTQ is still being a minority, and it is a journey to find out what that means to an individual and how to deal with it. A positive outlook is great but it won't erase a family upbringing that said you shouldn't be LGBTQ and a society that in every way organizes our social fabric around marriage and raising kids. We're gaining much visibility and acceptance, especially as of late, but we have a lot of cultural "otherness" still attached to us, and a lot of shame still apparent in our psychological DNA.

    sguyc, I suggest that you examine more closely why you feel the way you do. Did your family, friends, the church, or others give you negative messages growing up? Are you in a situation at work where you don't feel comfortable? Did a relationship fail because it didn't go the way you wanted? Are you lonely because you don't have enough meaningful connection in your life?

    You're dealing with your own unique circumstance, and you may need to look more closely at where these feelings come from. When you've identified the sources of these feelings then you can consciously challenge them and make your own conclusions. This has a lot to do with being gay but even more with being a man. Get to the root of this fear and overcome it or your negative expectations could become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Patrick
     
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