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Bigender vs Androgyne

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Hats, Nov 27, 2016.

  1. Hats

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    Hi everyone. I’ve noticed that recently that my shifts appear to have slowed down and become less extreme, and thus I’m spending much more time in the middle, where I feel both male and female simultaneously but not necessarily in equal concentrations. But I do still hit both male and female in my shifts. Would it be more accurate to say that I’m gender fluid between male, female, and androgyne, bigender with some fluidity, or androgyne with some fluidity? Basically, when you feel both male and female simultaneously, where is the line between bigender and androgyne?
     
  2. hangwithmejoe

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    Wish I had an answer, but I have no freakin' idea where I fall on that scale myself. I went with androgyne here because it was close enough. I'm not being very helpful, but hey, I hear ya.
     
  3. baristajedi

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    I'm also trying to find where I fall on this scale. Butch woman? Genderqueer? Male? I'm
    Sorry I'm not more helpful, but I wanted to say you're not alone... (*hug*)
     
  4. Irisviel

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    I would ask why do you try to define yourself with those labels in the first place, which is a question that could indeed help - to examine why exactly seek comfort with androgyne, bigender and so on.
    Gender is not a spectrum, and there is quite conclusive evidence that it is a binary. Choosing those labels is going into the realm of belief and ideology, not observable facts.
     
  5. SystemGlitch

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    This is a place for people of all gender identities. There is no need to be so demeaning. If they want to use a label that makes them happy and comfortable, just let them - it doesn't hurt you. If you want to be antagonistic towards NB trans people this isn't the place to do it.

    @OP, it basically comes down to which one you feel fits you best. The lines do get very blurred very quickly. What do you feel more comfortable using? Would you rather go into the nitty gritty of how you feel or would you rather keep it slightly more simple? For example, someone who is 95% attracted to men might call themselves "homo/heterosexual" for simplicity rather than "homo/heteroflexible" or "bisexual with a 90% male preference". Some people choose to do the same with gender labels, and will for example use "androgyne" instead of "genderfluid between 20% female, 30% male, 50% androgyne". At the end of the day, labels are just words you use to describe yourself - they don't change the core functionality of your gender identity, and they will never perfectly be able to describe your identity. So choose what fits you best (NOT what you fit best) and what makes you comfortable to use and will be practical for you to use in your daily life. If you even want to pick anything at all! :slight_smile:
     
  6. Irisviel

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    This is a place to offer knowledge to the best of one's ability, if you have a problem with that, go to the mods and don't try to police my words.

    I'm not antagonistic. Asking why a person chooses to label themselves a certain way is a core question that needs to be asked to solve any confusion. To answer why call one's self a certain way is a good first step to find out where possible solution is.
     
  7. SystemGlitch

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    Well, sorry for assuming that this wasn't an issue that needed moderators to be involved, and still really isn't. It'd just be a needless bother to them when they have way more to deal with.

    But I'm not getting into this. The point of this thread isn't the existance of non-binary genders, or the reasoning behind non-binary labels. Threads that turn into that always become arguments.
     
  8. Spot

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    Hey :grin:

    I'm 99% sure that bigender is where you shift between male and female while androgyne is where you feel like both or somewhere in-between constantly (with no fluctuating). Also, I don't think it's necessary to say that you're genderfluid between male, female and androgyne since that's basically the definition of bigender: feeling both male and female simultaneously or alternating between the two. Of course, if you prefer the label 'genderfluid', they're very similar terms so I don't see the problem with using either. However, I think that bigender is the best term for what you're describing (you could also go with transfeminine) :slight_smile:
     
    #8 Spot, Nov 28, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  9. AnguishXx

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    My point is that those labels are not recognized by scientific research, so I don't think there can be a safe answer if we discuss them as factual information.
     
    #9 AnguishXx, Nov 28, 2016
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  10. zammie

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    Bigender is when you feel like 2 genders at once, usually male & female but sometimes a nonbinary gender is thrown in there (ie, androgyne, neutrois, etc). If you're bigender genderfluid or bigenderfluid, then you shift between 2 genders & rarely feel like both at the same time. Androgyne describes the "in the middle of male and female" feeling more than bigender does from what I've read.
    In 2012, Chase and Ramachandren did a scientific study on genderfluid people who are also male/female bigender, and hypothesized that male/female genderfluidity happens due to changes in brain chemistry between masculine and feminine patterns. YMMV on how much you buy that, though.
     
  11. EverDeer

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    Honestly, if you think you feel some mixture of both, or how you feel changes over time, it really just depends on your perspective and what you feel comfortable using I think. Honestly, I can relate a lot in the sense that I get really caught up in labels too a lot of the time....and how I feel is so fluid, that when I get into little "ruts" of feeling the same way for a period of time and its different than how I've felt before, I immediately want to relabel myself since I feel that this time how I feel is going to stay that way (even though it never does). Also, I just don't personally really like the term genderfluid and what it implies even though that might be mostly how I actually feel, because my identity is really bigender and its more like I settle into lots of different little niches rather than flowing across it, if that makes any sense. So anyway, I just think if how you feel changes a lot, don't be so quick to feel the need to redefine yourself- you are how you are, and no matter what your label is, you'll always be yourself, so maybe just try to stick to something broad, or use both even if you want to, that's why I personally just stick to non-binary.
     
  12. EverDeer

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    From the wording and topic of OP's post, it is clear that they already know why they identify themselves as having a non-binary gender, and they probably know that it is within the realm of their beliefs seeing as there would be no other reason for identifying with much of anything in this world if it didn't line up with beliefs and feelings that are congruent to how one lives. However, if you personally do not believe that another person's gender can lie upon a spectrum in order for you to live your life authentically, then what exactly was your wisdom that you wished to share with OP on the topic of their thread? No offense, its just that your original post didn't seem to come off as having much constructive criticism since you just began by disagreeing with OP's beliefs without offering much constructive advice to do with the actual topic of their thread, which is mostly discussing the differences in certain non-binary feelings- its no question how they already identify.
     
  13. Synesthesia

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    I'm not sure really, the more specific labels confuse me a lot. I go with bigender though I'm not married to the label because it's just a label... But because I feel male and female are both important parts of my identity.

    ---------- Post added 28th Nov 2016 at 10:32 PM ----------

    The reason I don't like androgyne as much personally, is because it seems to imply an androgynous neither state. I feel like bigender does a better job of implying both - like bisexual does - but that's probably just me.
     
  14. Hats

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    Hi, Irisviel. Your question of why I'm seeking nonbinary labels is a good one, but your statement that nonbinary identities don't really exist is not. That said, I will address your question for posterity...

    I am nonbinary because I don't feel the binary labels fit (though I'm open to the fact this could in theory change in the future). Saying I'm a man has never felt 100% honest. Saying I'm a woman also doesn't feel correct. But the fact is there have been times when at a core level I have felt unquestionably 100% female for short time periods, and other times when I have felt unquestionably 100% male, and other times where I've felt both at once, and still others where I've felt both male and female in equal measure but with an additional emphasis on female. There is no way for me to rationalise this with binary labels, unless I simply say that I'm confused, or that I'm a transgirl in denial. But I'm not confused. I know how I've felt. I've wrestled with and worried about my feelings for several months. Saying I was some kind of mix of bigender and genderfluid felt right.

    The reason I'm questioning again now is because the frequency of my shifts is slowing and I'm spending more time as a mix or a balance of female and male. I mean yes, it's true, I could still be a transgirl in denial, or it could be that my hormones go wonky from time to time, and it could be that my shifts will never truly stop, they've just become more subtle. But regardless of the reason behind my feelings, for now some kind of nonbinary identity makes the most sense to me. I am trans. I am nonbinary. I hope this helps. :slight_smile:
     
  15. Irisviel

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    Well, then consider my perspective on things, because whether we agree or not on the non binary issue, we can still talk and explore. I can tell you that I have myself experienced, and perhaps still do, the "shifts" as you describe it. That is, feeling validated as one gender or the other. Please note the word validated - as I do not thing "feeling as X" is an accurate statement, because it asumes some inherent knowledge of how (wo)manhood feels like as some isolated sense of identity.
    So by validation I mean that I've felt, sometimes still do, those moments when something I do makes me find myself comfortable with a certain expression, or feel in alignement with that certain activity or manner of presentation. However, often, the feeling of validation as a male, accomplishment as a male, while nice for just a moment turns uncomfortable when self awareness kicks in.

    The reason I'm saying this is that perhaps you could explore whether what you mean by "shifts" are those moments of validation, or something else - to somehow make it less of a vague "feel like an X" thing to you. Perhaps with such a perspective you could find something more about yourself, especially that you clearly want female pronouns, your label is female leaning - the vibe I'm getting is that perhaps you might want to be female, just not necessarily fall into stereotypical woman's shoes. I myself am into many guy things, like guns and how they work - learning about those makes me feel quite on the same level as guys, but that's because of shared interest, not a gender shift.

    I'm not going to tell you to change how you call yourself, however if you're willing to consider my perspective, maybe you could find it valuable.
     
  16. Hats

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    Thank you, those are very helpful questions and I'll consider them. :slight_smile:

    If I may ask, in your case I see you identify as trans female, but you talk about validation rather than some inherent sense of being whatever gender. So is it the case that you identify as female because you feel validated almost exclusively by female things, or is it more that identifying as male just feels wrong and identifying as female feels right?

    Also, sorry if my previous reply came off as tetchy.
     
  17. Irisviel

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    It's alright, my views on gender aren't going to be popular on this forum as I tend to take a very strict approach.

    The reason I use words such as validation is that I have no other tangible way of determining what belongs to which gender - I've not been in anyone's head for comparison, and to be fair I haven't found any cis person who has any explanation either. The way I conclude to be a woman is by examining the discomfort I feel while functioning as a man, and relaxation and lack of gendered thoughts when I'm able to function as female. It is really hard to convey, but for instance - I could be in a relationship with a person, but only when they perceive me as female I feel fully involved and attracted. Or, in social situations, I'm much more at ease functioning as a woman, although that I can't do much yet. It's also about pressure to behave a certain when way when I present as male, and lack thereof when I present as female.

    So perhaps in a very simplified way, I could say yes, that I can identify that I'm a female by how uncomfortable being male is (and how that discomfort is healed by presenting as female). I prefer to describe it this way, as it offers something concrete as opposed to "feeling like an X" - because ultimately, I just feel like myself.

    And the same could be related to my body.

    edit: you could say that validation means that if I'm perceived as a woman by others, or even just myself when I do something that makes my self image feminine, I feel at ease (compared to pressure felt from having a male self image/being perceived as such).
     
    #17 Irisviel, Nov 29, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  18. Rickystarr

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    The lack of proof is not the proof of lack!

    That being said, I don't really get nb stuff at all and certainly not enough to explain what to me seems like like trivial differences, but that's prolly because I don't have that experience.
     
  19. Irisviel

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    Argument from ignorance is a fallacy and if we accepted its validity, all kinds of less and more fantastical claims would have to be considered true on the merit of not having proven the negative, beginning with God, through otherkin, to flying unicorns. I'm not making a comparison between people and those random things, just pointing what anti science approach leads to - certainly not knowledge and help.
     
  20. Mihael

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    I confused perceiving myself as this or that for shifts for a very long time... My gender is not how I see myself. It's what I am. It's much deeper than that and down to my essence, to the bottom of my soul.