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General News What do people think about faithless electors to elect Clinton as president?

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Alder, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. Alder

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    I'm not American and I don't know how to fully explain the electoral college system in America, but I've seen a lot of articles and petitions urging for electors (the ones who will be truly doing the voting for presidency in mid December) to go rouge/become faithless electors in the slim chance that Clinton could be president. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_College_(United_States))

    The Legal Electoral College Map Scenario That Could Still Make Hillary Clinton President In 2016

    The one scenario that could still get Hillary into the White House | New York Post

    What do people think? I've talked to a few people within the LGBTQ community and otherwise, and some are fighting hard for this whilst others say it's a bad idea that could result in even worse adverse consequences towards everyone. Either way though it seems incredibly unlikely this could work, but not 100% impossible.

    I'm very very conflicted. Although I do not want Trump to be president at all and I'm terrified for the LGBTQ community and all vulnerable minority groups under Trump and Pence, I am also scared that in the chance this does work, it could result in even worse consequences and backlash, which also might very well happen. But at the same time, Trump becoming president seems very detrimental towards so many of us and any hope that it might not happen is definitely something.

    On the other hand, it might also be worthwhile to direct more time and energy to organisations and policies that could protect people (not just LGBTQ people but everyone threatened under a Trump presidency) rather than this, and to just face the future the best we can now, but honestly I'm not sure.

    What do people think about this? What would be the most useful way to go forward after the election night results? (Don't want to argue with anyone by the way, just looking for some thoughts and would be interested in learning more)
     
    #1 Alder, Nov 12, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2016
  2. Aussie792

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    Stable democracies are governed by rules and conventions that, even where they do not reflect the popular will, must be considered legitimate if they were the rules and conventions everyone expected to be governed by at the time voting occurred.

    While I want to be clear that I think the American people fucked up enormously by electing Trump, and that I think James Comey and Russian interference make Trump's presidency one of the most democratically illegitimate elections since women's suffrage and widespread black voting, I still think now that the election has occurred, he ought to be president.

    The convention of electors voting as their state did, even if it is undemocratic and unrepresentative, is an important rule to maintain. That's because the looser expectations of electors are, the more likely they are to renege on the popular vote in the future. In such a highly polarised environment, it's not likely that faithless electors would set a norm for electing the popular victor - they would set a norm for electing their favoured winner, as the original Electoral College was designed.

    Such a result favours the Republicans, who control the House despite being nationally less popular than the Democrats thanks to their gerrymandering.

    To elect Clinton would be a disaster in the long-term, as not only would Clinton's surprise comeback make her seem illegitimate to many Americans who have come to accept the Electoral College's practices, making her less effective, but it would also create a backlash that prevents Democrats from the vital task of harnessing the predictable national unpopularity of an unchecked Trump presidency to win statehouses back and redistrict congressional seats after 2020, which might democratise a disintegrating political climate and allow the Democrats more sweeping power in the next decade onwards.

    As much as I dearly admire and respect Mrs. Clinton, the consequences of backlash would be too great.
     
  3. Austin

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    You don't retroactively change the rules of the election, which you agreed to, just because it didn't turn out how you wanted... My opinion.
     
  4. Chip

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    I see both sides of this. There's an argument to be made that the founders, in setting up the electoral college and the electors, prepared for exactly this sort of situation: Someone grossly unqualified and/or dangerous, and an emergency-use-only plan to abort the situation.

    But, as others have said, there is also a strong argument to be made that a democracy isn't a democracy if the will of the people isn't followed.

    And there's a third argument, that goes with the first, that since Hillary seems to have won the popular vote AND there's so much worldwide, unprecedented animosity toward Trump, along with the Putin factor and various other unsavory things... that there might be justification here.

    It would be absolutely unprecedented, and it would almost certainly cause rioting and God knows what else... perhaps civil war... among the ignorant, disenfranchised folks who voted for him. Yet there's also other crazy talk on the other side (secession of California, various other strategies.)

    I think the likelihood of this happening is near zero. But this has been a year when a whole bunch of "near zero" things have come to pass, so... we'll see.
     
  5. Iloveyoubabe

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    This.
     
  6. AlamoCity

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    It's an interesting question. I say it's funny because you are piting the originalist interpretation of the constitution to the "living document" doctrine. The original intent was to prevent the rise of unfit persons to the presidency; of course, the electors would "veto" the will of their consituencies and use their "superior" knowledge to protect the masses from themselves. This might be a situation according to some electors' conscience. Of course, the "living document" version of this is: the electoral college is simply a rubber stamp of the vote of the people for that state, an imperfect facsimile that doesn't always "copy" the will of the people perfectly but a part of our democracy; that our constitution evolved to let the will of the people be supreme and that no further qualification for president exists.

    Now, getting back to the "funny" part, right now the more staunch supporters of originalist interpretations would want the more "liberal" interpretation of the constitution and vice versa.
     
  7. midwestgirl89

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    The election happened and the idiots spoke. Although the electoral college sucks it has gone on for years, and it was fair. If they decide to go rogue and vote Hillary I won't hate it though....
     
  8. AmyBee

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    It won't happen.
     
  9. ConnectedToWall

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    Yes, I think that the electoral college should definitely cast there votes for Hillary Clinton. As for how to get that to happen, I'm not sure.
    The entire idea behind the electoral college, was that because regular Americans couldn't possibly have enough time to fully research candidates, they should not be able to vote for president, but instead the electoral college makes the final decision in order to ensure that the person is fully qualified and fit to lead.
    Now, unfortunately, the electoral college in recent history has not served its original purpose. Al Gore won the popular vote back in 2000 but was also not elected president. George W. Bush proved himself to be unfit on many occasions. He did not attend any security meetings until after 911, and he did not handle Hurricane Katrina the way a fit president should at all. However, since his father before him was president, it is debatable weather or not he would be considered fit to lead. Perhaps the electoral college thought the experience of his father validated him.
    In this case, I think it is clear to the majority of politicians, Democrat or Republican, that Donald is unfit to lead. Ideally, the electoral college would step up and do their job even if (ironically) they would face penalties (some more severe than others, I think, depending on the state) for doing so. However, if you notice, Trump is essentially "playing dead" right now. I think he has the Republicans convinced that he is docile enough to be their puppet, and if he keeps this up until he is sworn into office, the Republicans aren't likely to make sure that that doesn't happen. I would hope that they would be wise enough to realize that the man that hijacked their entire party isn't likely to sit still and let them rule while in office, but I was the one who thought he wouldn't get elected, so who knows.
    All I can say is, if the pattern that we've had in recent history keeps up, we'll have Donald for 8 years and he will undo everything good that Obama has done and do many terrible things. Then we will have an amazing president for 8 years....and then what? Can you even imagine someone worse than Donald Trump? I thought that George W. Bush caused the death of the Republican party, essentially, but after 8 years, people went and elected someone a thousand times worse than him. Can you imagine people electing someone a thousand times worse than Trump?
    Scary stuff.
     
  10. CyclingFan

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    I think there's a great moral case, and a 'founders intention case' for it.

    But it would also lead directly to civil war. A real shootin one.

    It might even be worse than marijuana, y'all, but I'm not one to argue relative harms.
     
  11. sldanlm

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    Even on the minor chance 1 or 2 change their vote, it won't change the outcome. This is not a realistic scenario at this time. Something could potentially happen or come out that could cause this to occur, but it would have to be pretty bad and happen pretty quick.

    ---------- Post added 14th Nov 2016 at 05:58 AM ----------

    Actually I hope what you said in the bolded part is true. Trump is less of a problem than Pence and the rest of the Republicans in the House and Senate.

    I don't have to imagine, he's going to be the next vice president. Also, unlike previous vice presidents, he's actually going to wield some power under a Trump administration. I hope Trump has the fortitude to stand up to him, but I'm not confident of that right now.
     
  12. Czarcastic

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    It is a ridiculous idea.

    First, everyone went into the election knowing the rules of the game. Trump won the election under those rules and therefore to take the election away from him is undemocratic and sets a dangerous precedent.

    I hate Trump with a passion and I feel he will be an utter failure but he has won the election and therefore deserves the opportunity to govern

    On another semi-related note, I would love to see the how voter ID laws affected the election as those effected from such laws tend to be Democrats.
     
  13. warrior452

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    I think it could happen, but something would have to happen to cause MAJOR upset. Like Trump getting convicted of fraud, or in this child abuse/sexual assault case (not sure of the specifics there - whatever the charges are) or if they can prove the rumor that his team colluded with Russia during the election. Then it would have a chance. However, barring something jarring, I don't think this is a realistic idea at this time.
     
  14. Tritri

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    I am very sorry but as unfortunate as it is, Donald Trump is going to be our next president. This simply is not going to happen. Your next best bet is changing his mind, or impeaching him, or curling up into a ball and hoping these four years go by fast.
     
  15. Kira

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    I will say such actions are in good will, but utterly our fate is sealed.

    Sort of like trying to prevent global warming. People will do what they want, regardless of the damage it causes to everyone else. I don't ever expect rational minds to hold a stable majority enough for humanity as a whole to make efficient and rational decisions.

    Think of our little situation as a butterfly ready to emerge from a cocoon, and suddenly a few extra layers are woven around it. It will still emerge in time, albeit later down the road and maybe a little sickly for a while. It won't merely give in no, it will keep trying, even in a forest of birds.
     
  16. Psaurus918

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    It's too late and Trump will be our president for the next 4 years. I do think we need to get rid of the electoral college in the future though.
     
  17. Jinkies

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    I think there's a lot of justification for going through with it. The same problems that happened with the Sanders/Clinton primaries also happened here (Technical issues, people outside polling locations deterring people away). Only thing was that the DNC didn't meddle with things. Actually, they did, and it blew up in their face. Had these not happened, we'd likely have Clinton as president, and Gary Johnson might have also gotten the 5 percent he needed for the Libertarian party to be recognized for payment. The founding fathers also put this in place. Someone had the idea that it was going to be needed.

    That said, I think it's likelier if I went to the PGA tour right now and won with a perfect score.
     
    #17 Jinkies, Nov 22, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
  18. Flowey

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    Double this.
    The way I see it, as long as there is a voting system, any kind of voting system, there's always a chance your favorite candidate/policy is not going to win. Someone just has to lose. The only way for it to be fair to almost everyone is getting rid of voting altogether ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Why don't people appeal to congress to pass a legislation that states "The candidate must have X years in politics" or something similar if people are so complaining about lack of qualification? :rolle:
     
  19. ThatBorussenGuy

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    Clinton won the popular vote. More actual people voted for her. But because the states that happen to have the most representatives of the Electoral College went to Trump, we will have a white supremacist sympathizer and fascist in office for four years. Popular vote be damned, right?

    Fuck the Electoral College. Go with the will of the people. That's how a democracy is supposed to work.
     
  20. DAFriend

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    Either way, it won't be good. I expect more protests and, more violence in this country no matter what the electoral college does.

    There are arguments for Clinton winning the popular vote and, for Trump winning it. So I call that a moot point.

    While I would like to see the electorate rebel and vote Clinton into office on a personal level, I also feel that would signal the beginning of the collapse of our democracy. It may also ignite a civil war in this country and, I don't want that.

    I am one of the many that supported Clinton but, had to sacrifice some issues I see as very important. I want some of what Trump promised, but, I voted for rights of ALL people, not just the white, Christian, business people.

    Trump stays in and white money runs this country, Clinton get in and white money rebels and, unfortunately, Trump supporters are the majority of the gun owners in this country. That does not bode well for any of us.

    As much as I want to believe we will be okay, I've made plans and, am prepared to flee the country in January or soon after, if it gets that bad here. I hope I don't have to but, I'm concerned that it may come to that. Best to be prepared and, have a plan I don't need rather than be stuck in another living hell. I survived 17 years of that growing up, I refuse to endure any more of it.