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A video about LGBT vs LGQT, and "mostly straight"

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Mihael, Oct 17, 2016.

  1. Mihael

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py1CQAn00F8

    That got me thinking. The only reason why I out myself at all as bi, probably is along these lines, it serves as outing myself as queer / genderqueer.

    It's like, before last year, I just shrugged it off. Boobs turn me one? Who wouldn't be turned on if they swing so visibly and are so cool? Females are far more sexualised in our culture anyway. Everyone gets a bit gay with best friends. Nothing unusual.

    Just got me thinking. That guy sounds like he's right.
     
  2. darkcomesoon

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    I disagree strongly. And I have a lot of thoughts, so I apologize in advance if this post is long.

    First of all, his premise is that the LGBT community is made up of people who are genderqueer, which isn't really true. Even if we're defining genderqueer as simply not conforming to gender roles (which isn't how I think it should be defined, but that's an entirely different debate), not all LGBT people fit that definition. Even if we're counting dating people of the same gender as breaking gender roles, that doesn't change the fact that lots of trans people conform to gender roles and are straight. Should we kick them out too?

    Second, separating "mostly-straight" bisexuals from "queer" bisexuals is super gross. He's separating the "real" bisexuals from the "fake" bisexuals. The ones that will end up marrying someone of a different gender (the majority because it's so much easier to be in a heterosexual relationship; it's what's expected of you) from the ones that will end up marrying someone of the same gender. He's completely erasing the fact that bisexuals face homophobia (and biphobia) regardless of their preference. It's as if he thinks that homophobes won't harass a man for being attracted to other men, just because he likes women more and will probably marry one.

    A few gems:
    -"women who claim to be bisexual will date women for a short stent and then go back and start dating men” - naw, those women are bisexual, if they identify as such. If they're still attracted to women, they're still bisexual, even if they date men. They can still face homophobia if they're open about the fact that they're attracted to women, and they still belong in the LGBT community.
    -bi women will leave their lesbian partners and go back to dating “the preference [they] actually want” - if a bi woman is dating a lesbian, it's because she wants to be with that woman. She likes that woman more than any man, even if her usual preference is for men. A bi person having a preference doesn't make them less interested in any of their partners.

    His whole claim is that not all bisexuals are queer, but all bisexuals (who want to call themselves queer) are queer because they experience homophobia due to their attraction to people of the same gender, and therefore can find themselves being targeted by homophobic slurs (i.e. queer), giving them the right to reclaim those slurs.

    When he talks about "how good it would feel" for LG people to say LGQT instead of LGBT and know that all those "mostly-straight" bisexuals don't have to be included, he’s literally encouraging LG people to be biphobic, see all bisexuals as “secretly straight”, kick bi people out of a community they need, and call us “breeders”.

    Also, he’s forcing a slur on all bi people who aren’t “mostly-straight”, and that’s gross too. What about bi people who fit his definition of "queer bisexuals" but don't like to be called queer (because it's a violent slur)? What letter in LGQT do they get?

    It’s his choice if he doesn’t want to identify as queer, but it’s honestly so gross to say that the vast majority of bi people don’t belong in the LGBT community just because they have a preference (and because some biphobic LG people don’t want them there).
     
    #2 darkcomesoon, Oct 17, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  3. Synesthesia

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    Why is he conflating genderqueer with bisexuality? Also his definition of genderqueer, which I do think is the most common definition, is why I don't use that label.
     
    #3 Synesthesia, Oct 17, 2016
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  4. SystemGlitch

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    I agree with the above post. Because most people see me as female when they look at me, I've had gay people tell me that I'm "taking their spaces" because I have a boyfriend. Even when I tell them I'm a guy, I've had people tell me I'm "not really gay" and that I shouldn't be there and shouldn't receive support. Biphobia is different from homophobia, but a bi person can experience both depending on who they date - it isn't fair to kick us to the curb just because we can "appear straight".

    Also, sexuality has nothing to do with gender identities or gender roles... so outing as bi or queer isn't necessarily saying "I'm genderqueer!" because there are plenty of gay people who still follow gender roles rigidly or are naturally stereotypically masculine/feminine.

    ---------- Post added 18th Oct 2016 at 09:58 AM ----------

    Wanted to add - there's a time someone asked my sexuality, and I told them I was bisexual (cause most people don't know what pansexual means or even know there are more than two genders, so it's just easier than a shitload of explaining). Their response was "okay, but do you date men or women?" I feel like that's the question this guy is encouraging people to ask. It's like he's saying you can't REALLY be interested in men and women, you can only be actually interested in one or the other, and that the gay people need to be on the lookout and get rid of all the straight "bisexual" people invading their spaces... why is the LGBT community so closed minded sometimes?
     
    #4 SystemGlitch, Oct 18, 2016
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  5. Mihael

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    I feel like more it's the reality than a direction in which we should be going.

    ---------- Post added 18th Oct 2016 at 02:01 AM ----------

    A lot of people don't get it though, and I think I made use of it. And some of my friends did too.
     
    #5 Mihael, Oct 18, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  6. SHACH

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    Okay the connection between genderqueer and your level of preference for the opposite sex... I do understand that since embracing my boyish gender expression and how deeply that feels right for me has definitely amplified a preference for other girls. And I like that's he makes it seem okay that there's a gender you finally want to end up with (though mine is same sex not opposite). From his definitions maybe I could call myself a queer bisexual and that's quite helpful to my own personal thought.

    However at the same time it makes me sort of angry that he is categorising people without their permission and seeking to reinforce the lesbian stereotype of the bi girl who will leave them for a man. Hes just massaging biphobic assholes egos. People don't have to carry around these two perfectly distinguishing labels. We choose whether or how to explain ourselves in life. If a lesbian does not beleive the widely available information that most bisexuals can fall in love regardless of gender, and that some really do have a preference for the same sex, then shes not going to beleive you when you say your a queer bisexual or even when you say you love her... and she's not worth it. No need to massage the egos of people like that.
     
    #6 SHACH, Oct 18, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  7. Canterpiece

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    Admittedly I’m a bit confused as to what this video was trying to achieve, and at certain points it had me feeling a bit lost. What I gathered from this video is that most of the bisexuals in these studies had a stronger preference towards the opposite sex. Now when he started comparing bisexuality to gender-fluidness that’s where I started to get a bit lost. From what I understand, gender fluid is about someone’s identity, whereas what he seemed to be talking about was more androgyny since from what I understand, the celebrities he mentioned didn’t identify as gender fluid (that I know of).

    So if we take it that he meant to compare androgyny with bisexuality, and by doing so was trying to imply that bisexuals are more likely to be androgynous in either appearance and/ or behaviour, that’s an interesting claim. I have heard that stereotype before, but I have also heard the opposite. I know in certain TV shows, the bisexual female character is sometimes shown as more feminine than the straight female characters and gay female characters on the show.

    I have noticed similarities between how bisexual females and gay females are usually presented. For instance, the first time I saw some of the posters for faking it, I couldn’t help but feel like I’d seen it before in the form of “The truth about Jane”, particularly in the form of some of the poses I’d seen on some of the posters. I notice that presenting the character as quite casual in mannerisms, and showing the character as having their hands in their pockets seemed to be quite a common theme.

    It could be argued that Karma is also bisexual, particularly in the later seasons since the other characters do start to question just how straight she is, including a school news reporter who tries to out her by pointing out how jealous she acts sometimes and how many girls she has kissed. To me, Karma seems like a straight leaning bisexual whereas Amy seems to be a gay leaning bisexual.

    It doesn’t come as a surprise that Amy likes girls to the audience, since we’re introduced to that side of her fairly early on. The plot twist actually comes when it is revealed that Amy also likes guys, and for Karma the twist is that she also likes girls as well as guys.

    It's interesting to note the difference between how these two characters are portrayed. Amy comes across as more awkward, and casual whereas Karma is less awkward and slightly more feminine in terms of clothes, although in terms of hair and make-up both of them come across quite feminine.

    I notice that a casual, relaxed stance, perhaps even a look of disinterest, slouching and keeping hands in pockets seem to be common visual cues that directors tend to use as a means of trying to communicate to the audience that the character in question likes women, and probably has a preference towards them whether exclusively or not. It’s also fairly common to show male characters like this too, especially the hands in the pockets thing.

    Now whether bisexual people are more likely to appear androgynous isn’t something we can really confirm or deny, since you can’t exactly take all the bisexual people in the world and make a poll can you? Anecdotally I can say what the bisexual people I know look like, but the two Bi/pan people I know (one pansexual woman, and one bisexual man) telling you about them isn’t going to tell you much in the bigger picture. Telling you that the woman I know is quite feminine in appearance, and the guy is also somewhat feminine but less so than the woman doesn’t tell you much.

    Alright, and now on to this idea of “queer bisexuals” and “straight-leaning bisexuals”. Now this is where it gets complicated. According to him, most bisexuals are straight-leaning and highly likely to end up in opposite-sex relationships. Then he goes on to state that most bisexual women who get with other women actually have no intention of staying with the women in the long term, and all plan on marrying a man anyway.

    Now, I have heard of women like this before, but they seem to be in the minority.

    It should be worth noting that I actually went through a phase of reasoning where I’d tell myself that it was ok for me to be feeling attracted to women, so long as I married a man in the end.

    At this point, I realise that although I might one day get with a man, it seems unlikely- and that’s ok. Stuff happens. I’ll admit that I feel a tinge of annoyance when I see comments from people that say “Oh, I’m a bisexual woman and I’ve been with my girlfriend for X number of years, but I plan on marrying a man someday in a church somewhere and be in a monogamous relationship with him, but don’t tell my girlfriend that!”.

    That’s just an asshole thing to do, period. I get that some people are more into casual dating, but as a general rule you should communicate with each other what you want from the relationship from the get-go. If you don’t communicate that you just want to keep things short term and plan on leaving them, well it’s probably going to hurt the other a lot. I think this rule applies to anyone really, regardless of orientation.

    Now, he seems to be implying that only gay-leaning bisexuals can live happily in a same-sex relationship, or at least for the long-term. It’s interesting how he doesn’t mention 50/50 bisexuals in this at all. What category would he put them in? Or do they just not exist according to him?

    I can’t really say if straight-leaning bisexuals can happily be in relationships with the same sex, since I don’t really have much knowledge or experience on that. I guess this all ties into “how attracted to the opposite sex/same sex do you have to be in order to fit under the bi category?”, since people tend to draw the line at different places. For some, if a person experienced attraction to the opposite sex 1/365 days per year and to the same sex 364/365 days per year, and didn't feel anything to the opposite sex on leap years, they would still fit under the bi category. For others, they would consider the person above as gay, “practically gay” or homoflexible.

    Others would argue that homoflexible is a subsection of bisexuality, whilst another group would argue that homoflexible is between bisexuality and homosexuality, or that it is a separate identity by itself.

    I’ve heard of lesbians who are in a loving relationship with a man, but still identify as a lesbian because according to them the guy they are with is the only exception to their label, so they still see themselves as a lesbian. So I mean, if that’s possible than why not a relationship between a lesbian and a straight-leaning bisexual?

    It all comes down to what we think of as bisexuality. I remember reading an article about a woman asking her audience what she should do about her marriage. She was married to a man, and how originally she saw herself as a Kinsey 4 in terms of attraction, but how overtime she realised she was actually closer to a Kinsey 5 and how she was only very rarely attracted to her husband and how she felt guilty because she felt like her husband deserved someone that felt affectionate and attracted to him all the time, not just on the rare occasion- and she was asking how to explain this to him and how to end the relationship.

    Now, would you identify her as bisexual? Gay? Mostly gay? Ect…. That’s what people argue about. Identity is a very personal thing, and there tends to be a lot of variation between people just under the same label. Now for some, they’ll argue that if you’re not 100% either way, then you’re bisexual. Others will argue that you’re only bisexual if you’re capable of sustaining a relationship with both sexes, regardless of whether you have or not. And some people will argue that you’re only bisexual if you’ve been with both.

    Point is, definitions can be something of a grey area in the LGBT community. They’re often debated, but in the end the main thing is- how you view yourself. I know a guy who says he sees himself as 80% straight, 20% gay but still identifies as straight, or mostly straight but not bisexual. Now of course, sometimes the way people see themselves isn’t always useful.

    I mean, you can get cases where someone is 100% gay, yet claim to be straight- which in that case that’s just being either in the closet or extremely in denial, or both. Or vice versa, but I don’t hear that one happening too often. But where you get to the point where someone is 95- 98% gay, and only slightly straight, is there any point in them labelling themselves bisexual? What about vice versa?

    Usually when someone says bisexual, tell me- what comes to mind? I think for most people; they assume that would mean someone who is either close to the middle or someone who has a preference for a particular sex, but are still fairly close to the middle. Sure, they could be referring to someone who has a rather strong preference for one sex, and is just curious/ has a very slight attraction to the other sex, but that’s not usually what comes to mind for people I’d say.

    In this video he seems to be including “mostly straight” in the bisexual category, and in another video he refers to the “mostly straight” section as Kinsey 1’s in terms of attraction. It’s probably worth noting that there are a lot of Kinsey 1’s that still view themselves as straight. So if you take this guy’s method, and include everyone who isn’t a strict Kinsey 0 or 6, that’s a lot of people.

    According to him, Kinsey 1’s pretty much outnumber everyone. I’ve seen studies based on surveys that reach a similar conclusion, some showing that Kinsey 1’s are the second largest group, just under Kinsey 0’s, and other articles have claimed that Kinsey 1’s actually outnumber Kinsey 0’s. Problem with studies is that they all rely on self-reported numbers, and sometimes the way people view themselves isn’t always to- the- letter accurate.

    I think there a few layers to someone’s identity, there’s their gender identity which ties into what label someone uses, and then there are the basic identity labels they use to describe themselves to others with (so gay, straight, bi ect). And then there are the smaller details about their basic identity (So I see myself as X because, although I have exceptions because…, however I still see myself as X because… on certain grids/tests/scales I would rate myself…. ect).

    It’s complicated.

    ...If being a web designer doesn't work out for me, I could always write a book on this instead. XD :grin:
     
    #7 Canterpiece, Oct 18, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  8. Creativemind

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    I agree completely. There are a lot of biphobic remarks here. I was in a relationship with a bi girl who preferred men, but she left me for a WOMAN. She cheated on me with two other women twice. She was just a cheater. This has nothing to do with bisexuality. I've also been with bi people who never cheated. One ended up with a man after me, but that was after we broke up, so that isn't any of my business.

    I'm confused about the definition of genderqueer here. I just view that word as a non-binary gender. Yeah, I'm a more masculine woman but I don't want to be called "genderqueer" because I'm a woman. I also don't think that NGC cis straight people are really part of the community. Anyone is welcome to visit the community, as allies are important, but basing the definition off of gender roles for our community is misleading.
     
  9. Mihael

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    I would happily read your books, Canterpiece :slight_smile: It's easy to follow what you write, even though it's long.

    I think he was expressing his messy thoughts, not particularily trying to achieve something.

    My personal opinion is that bi people are actually a large group, vastly underestimated in number, and probably most of them (us) are gender-conforming. Apart from maybe having to unlearn common gender roles a bit for practical purposes (like... let's take a simple example, as a straight woman, you can wait to be asked out, because traditional and commonly understood gender roles, but if you're into other women, you have to do some asking out too if you want to get a date).

    And that for some reason the LGB has a larger subset of GNC people than the general population, although I don't know how much of that is following a stereotype in order to be recognised as gay and hence get dates and the practical purposes. And how much of that is intrinsic gender non-conformity. And how much gender non-conformity plays a role in sexual preferences. I often find I don't click in those... typical straight relationships. Even if physically, I'm into the guy, my natural way of being frequently makes it impossible to keep the chemistry going. And produces some kind of sexual tension between me and my female friends too, even if I don't mean it this way. So... Hm. There might be some correlation, but I don't think it's straightforward.

    That someone "something-leaning" can't be happy with a gender not of their preference is just BS, IMHO. But it's true that they may break up, and after the breakup, due to normal probability and preference, this person is more likely to end up with the gender of their preference. It's simple math. If, say, I am 70% attracted to men and 30% to women, then I have a greater chance of ending up with a man. And that obviously happens in 70% so the majority of such cases.

    Also, my feeling about seeking support in LGBT is that if I had a same-sex/gender partner, I would seek it there, but as long as I don't, I feel like a straight girl with shortish hair and man-purse who is sticking her nose into someone else's business. Like, why? What interest do I have in it? As an ally, maybe... I don't even have LG friends. Heck, I identified as mostly straight, and then it all went crazy.

    What I think the guy who made the video has got a point on, is that bi people often have a choice, especially those who are mostly straight, to join the LGBT or not, and if you're genderqueer/androgynous/etc it kind of makes sense to join, because of the appreciation of gender non-conforming people in the community, or at least much greater appreciation than in the general population, a much more liberal approach to those matters. Those are more the identity matters.

    ---------- Post added 18th Oct 2016 at 09:09 AM ----------

    Yeah. Be practically straight, GNC, like your body, and you're swept under the carpet and belong nowhere.
     
  10. Linthras

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    AFAIK, my sexuality is completely independent of my gender identity.
    I've been attracted to men, women and genderqueer people, not because of my own gender identity, but because I found those people attractive in and of themselves.
     
  11. darkcomesoon

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    It's true that bi people have a choice as to whether or not they want to consider themselves LGBT (although I generally find that people who are a 1 on the kinsey scale are more likely to choose between seeing themselves as heteroflexible (straight) or bisexual (LGBT) than to choose between seeing themselves as an LGBT bisexual or a non-LGBT bisexual). That being said, I'd argue that literally anyone who falls under any of the LGBT letters has a choice to consider themselves LGBT or not.

    I think being gender nonconforming is a reason a person who is lesbian, gay, bi/pan, or trans/nonbinary might choose to consider themself LGBT, but I think it's a subset of a larger reason. I think the main reason someone would choose to consider themself LGBT is if they feel alienated by non-LGBT people. A cis bisexual person who conforms to gender roles and never dates anyone of the same gender might find themself fitting comfortably into straight society and feel no need to identify as part of the LGBT community. However, a different cis bisexual person who conforms to gender roles and never dates anyone of the same gender might find themself feeling alienated by cis straight people because of their attraction to people of the same gender, and may find that the LGBT community is a safe space for them to be vocal about their attractions and feelings.

    My issue with the video isn't the idea that there are bisexual people who don't feel that they belong in the LGBT community; it's that he made blanket statements about all "mostly-straight" bisexuals and assumed that all of them feel the way he does and that none of them should be allowed in the LGBT community.
     
  12. Mihael

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    I get the issue your issue with the video and agree completely, darkcomesoon. This aspect just didn't stand out to me that much when I first watched it.