General News UK EU Referendum - 23/06/2016

Not going to react to everything, but rules ARE rules. Period. You can't simply create rules to influence an outcome so you get the result you desire. That's how democracy does NOT work.
The game was played by the rules, you lost and that's it. The rest is crying over spilt milk.

 

The NY Times had a good opinion piece on the hysteria and unethically sloppy attention to facts in the press, the author not mincing words about Boris Johnson's despicable role in spreading lies.

Simply put, I doubt the average pro-Leave Briton was even vaguely aware of how Britain's economic success was in many ways contingent on the EU, or had the slightest clue about the re-imposition of EU rules in any renegotiation of terms to access the common market. I doubt that the average Briton cares or would participate in the classification of fabrics or the sizes of nails and bolts whether there was an EU regulator or not. The outrage at "over half our national legislation being made by Brussels" didn't take into account much of it was finicky measures to standardise goods that Parliament would have and will continue to do without much citizen consultations. The good of being a major player in setting rules, the environmental legislation set by the EU and so on were quiet benefits with complex mechanisms. Many were simply too lazy to take those into account.

Jingoism, bluster and the open racism of the press an many ordinary British people ended up winning the day. But those who call it a sober, informed decision are making a laughable claim. A divisive but not illuminating debate, that quintessentially British dislike of expert opinion and a belief that the politicians were being slimy and equivocating, making a 'simple' issue more complex than they thought it need be. Racist fear-mongering, economically illiterate 'analyses', an obsession over a sense of sovereignty defined the impressions many had of the EU at the vote. And given how narrow it was, I will not accept that such weak reasoning didn't sway the vote.

And on top of that, politicians in Britain have been quick to scapegoat Brussels to escape the consequences of decisions, ready to bash the EU rather than defend the reasons for following EU policy or explain that Britain inevitably must do so. This has been a trend for decades and has poisoned the British public's attitude to the EU.

 

Now I've had a little time to calm down and reflect on the outcome, I feel a little less anxious about it all.
I think Juncker (or whatever his name is), wishes he'd not played hardball with the UK as much as he did. The way he says the activation of article 50 must be done as soon as possible smacks of sour grapes. So does the way he stresses "The will be NO renegotiations".

I still wanted in though, but the UK and the EU will continue, though I can't help feeling that this is only temporary for both.
I'm certain that Scotland will leave the UK, though not for a while.

Also, I think the EU will suffer more exits in the near future. It - the EU - works, though not perfectly.

My long term view is that the EU will reform - with Britain onside - as the European Alliance.

 

I've felt devastated since I saw the result this morning, and as I saw the opinions and reactions on TV I've felt more and more angry about this situation (many voters not sure why they voted a certain way, or basing their votes on incorrect details.) In every region of Scotland, the majority voted to remain, and yet we will now be leaving the EU with the rest of the UK. I think there were a lot of benefits from the EU, and now I am very concerned about what this change will mean for our economy (as the £ has plummeted), for workers rights, for our universities and for the large number of Europeans who are living in this country and contributing so much already. But I do understand the reasons why some people voted leave. The EU wasn't perfect, there are benefits to being out (though I think the cons outweigh the pros) and this is a democracy. While some people on TV today seemed to vote for infuriating reasons, there are a lot of sensible reasons on either side. So I'm very sad that we're leaving the EU, and while I hope that something positive can come out of this and the country can find some sort of stability and have some sort of positive relationship with the EU once we're out of it, I am also very concerned about the direction of politics in the UK.

In a few hours since the result, the leave campaign has already backpedalled by saying they won't be putting the supposed £350 million back into the NHS, they won't commit to reducing immigration. I didn't believe any of that talk for a second, but a lot of voters did. I've just seen lies and fear-mongering from both sides of the campaign, so the voters just had no idea who to trust. Having had a few of these votes in recent years, I've seen more and more hollow promises, fear mongering and hate slinging from politicians, and more and more political spin from the media and I've become quite jaded about it. When people like Farage and Johnson win here after lots of bigotry and disgraceful comments from them, I get really frustrated, and yet I see lots of people who are getting equally pent up on the other side but are getting more and more supportive of them. I do think the media has been shamelessly pro leave, playing and manipulating people's fears. There were a lot of good reasons for voting leave (other leave supportive were much better at presenting these arguments than Farage and Johnson), and the country needed to have a sensible and thoughtful debate about this, but over the last few weeks it has just been a rather aggressive and toxic atmosphere.

Now we're in the situation where the UK is set to leave the EU. In the Scottish Independence referendum I voted to stay as part of the UK, as I didn't believe that the SNP could be trusted to lead our country and fulfill their campaign promises, that they would be able to provide a stable economy (which they weren't due to the fall in oil shortly afterwards) and that I think they are far more right wing than they claim. I also hoped that the UK could still be saved and that together we could remain as part of the EU (which I believe isn't just beneficial for the country and the EU, but is fundamentally exactly what I want for our society, to contribute and work together in a peaceful way.) Now that the Tories have a majority government in England, and the UK is dragging Scotland out of the EU, I would probably vote yes to Scottish Independence (if Scotland is unable to support itself then I'll probably just leave Scotland and the UK.) My concerns of the SNP are far far less than my concerns about the direction of the UK government. UKIP are a disgraceful party and today they have more public support after a win for Farage. The Tories are likely to be going to go even further to the right now Cameron is leaving, which means further cuts, especially to the NHS. We are losing all the benefits of being in the EU and if there is even a chance that Scotland can remain or join the EU then I would go with that. I just hate that I'm in this position that my belief in peace, unity and working together is now challenged by this result (though the political situation in many countries in Europe is a concern as it is.) The political movement in England is so vastly different from how it is in Scotland. Except London, apparently some of them are calling for independence from the UK too.

 

Aww, Davo, my heart aches for you. You seem genuinely devastated. (*hug*) Indeed, from a foreigner's point of view, it's a bit sad to lose the UK, but it is beyond infuriating to see people appearing on TV and online saying "oh nooo! I voted leave but I had no idea it would count or that it would happen! Urg I regret it so much!" - how can one be in age of voting and *still* this clueless about how voting works in general? Depressing, really.

Does anyone know if another referendum about Scotland leaving the UK is already in the making?

 

There are no immediate plans to call on an indy ref this soon however the first minister has alluded that there will be one. We don't really know. Personally, I would want to observe the general direction of the UK before talking about an indy ref. I'll probably vote leave then if it's for the worst.

 

Well, I woke up to a shock this morning. I knew the Leave campaign had a lot of people on their side, but I, nor anyone I know, expected the outcome of today. There are even being interviewed today, who voted to leave, because they thought remain would win the referendum anyway. I have no idea how they're so delusional, but it's happening.

The country has essentially fallen apart overnight. I'm ashamed to call myself British.

I'll add the rest in a spoiler to prevent a wall of text.

Spoiler

Not sparing any malice of any kind to leave voters, but I'm disgusted by what their decision has caused already. Farage's campaign was almost entirely based on immigration and the promise that £350m would go to the NHS, which he almost immediately retracted this morning on GMB, saying he never said such a thing when there are tour buses emblazoned with the words straight from the horse's mouth. Already today, we've lost trading with Japan, lost £350b in two hours, Northern Ireland and Scotland want independence, and the whole United Kingdom is divided, and whole families are divided. Mine included. I don't think the older generations realise what it feels like to be betrayed by your own parents and grandparents and be stripped of your future, just so they can 'get rid of the immigrants' (who won't be going anywhere either way), and it doesn't stop non-EU immigrants coming into the country. There has been a petition started this morning to amend rules for referendums which has already received over 125,000 signatures the last time I checked. Language students on years abroad will no longer receive grants from the EU to help cover their costs of living, and the impact on medicine will be huge. A man has been reported to be protesting outside of a Muslim-majority school. Our Prime Minister has admitted defeat and stepped down. This is all by 12pm. Haven't all of us in the UK learnt to ignore whatever Farage pledges?

With confidence in Scotland's future refenderum to finally be free of the clutches of the UK, I have begun to think about what I will do to get away from this country, and will try for Scottish citizenship when it finally becomes independent, and I will relinquish my British citizenship. Whether Scotland will rejoin the EU or not, I would much rather be there rather than be under the rule of fascists such as Farage and Johnson. It's terrifying to wake up one morning and be in a completely different country, when you haven't moved anywhere. I feel betrayed by my own teachers and friends and family. Also, as the minority in this UK referendum, I am allowed to be as whiny/melodramatic as I like.

I voted remain. I am utterly devastated at this result, and have had to watch all of my plans for the future disappear right in front of my eyes.

 

Crying over spilt milk that's going to affect us for the entirety of our lives. Let us mourn the future that we voted for. 2 massive companies in my city have already stated that they're moving their headquarters to Hamburg in September. This is the very first day having left the EU and at least 400 people in my city alone have already lost their jobs. Really though, 'the results we desire', half the country voted leave, half remain. The percentage difference was negligible, it was changing constantly up until the actual vote. With something like this that's going to have a massive effect on every person in the country there should be a much higher percentage to be able to call it a fair majority. The amount of brexiters looking at the shitstorm they've caused and are regretting their vote is pathetic and really disheartening.

 

But wait, technically you have not left the EU yet, right? Wouldn't it take 3 to 5 years for it to take effect? Some people react real fast...

 

Thanks, I didn't mean to sound too devastated, everyone I've spoken to seems to feel the same way as me, which is why there is a big disconnect with the how we've voted and how the rest of the UK have voted. I hate division and xenophobia, so it's a weird place to be even considering independence now but I just dislike the way things seem to be heading (and the people who seem to be leading us there.)

I really hope those people who voted one way without knowing that it would count are the minority. I also wish there was a larger turnout, I think there was around 70% in this referendum but there was a much higher turnout in the Scottish referendum last year. Nicola Sturgeon says it is highly likely, but I think Westminster would have to allow it for it to happen, and I think that is unlikely given that we've just had a referendum. It's what the SNP want so she'll keep trying, and going by the majority of Scottish comments from people I've spoken to, or from comments on social media, that a large number of Scottish people are considering independence based on this result.

 

Well since it seems unlikely that the UK will get a second chance, companies are now doing measures to protect their interests. Some EU politicians are already pushing for article 50. This is very vague though. Since the UK will be leaving, 2 years was given as a leeway to untangle the ties that the country used to have with the EU. I'm assuming that certain parts of our existing laws would be modified.

Thousands of businesses have warned about this before. Forecasts who have indicated a "stable" economy after Brexit have changed that bit towards "negative". Concerns about how fast the UK could trade with the single market have also been discussed and for as long as that's in the air, the UK economy is very volatile. Investors also seem to distrust the UK and are actually investing in other currencies like the dollar and the yen.

 

If Scotland get a referendum, I think it is much more likely for them to get independence now. Northern Ireland less likely, but they're still trying. All of Scotland voted to stay for anybody who didn't know.

 

The pound has taken a nose dive. Businesses know what's going to happen when the economy completely crashes and they don't want to be here when it happens. Thousands upon thousands are going to lose their jobs before we're technically 'out' of the EU but that doesn't mean we're not already fucked.

 

When Dave resigned I almost cried. Who the hell is gonna be PM now?!! Corbyn's got a vote of no confidence... Farage would actually have such a big chance its frightening.

 

Johnson is looking to be a favourite at the moment. He'll make our country British again. Racist, homophobic, run into a hole.

 

If Westminster said no to another independence referendum that'd be at least 20% added to the number of people who'll want out of the Union. Even Boris knows that the sight of a Tory government dictating terms to Scotland doesn't look good.

It'll be the Poll Tax again by a factor of a million.

 

This is really sad, and I hope it doesn't trigger Denmark and Sweden's exit

The UK might get the same deal as Switzerland or Norway, so... it will be bound by the four freedoms. So, it will have to accept EU immigrants. If this is the case, all the UK has done is lose its voice and vote within the EU.

 

Scotland will be like Canada is for Americans, a means to protest-vote with our feet.

Seriously though, considered doing that myself... May still do it.

 

I would actually be eligible for Scottish citizenship should they gain independence, being of Scottish heritage. It'd be a handy travel passport, what with the open travel area etc.

 

That's the biggest irony of it.

The other one is that without EU to blame Boris&Nigel would be exposed for what they are (incompetent clowns and cheap liars) to everyone but the truest of believers very soon.