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General News UK EU Referendum - 23/06/2016

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by 741852963, Jun 22, 2016.

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How will you vote in the EU referendum?

  1. Voting to Remain

    31 vote(s)
    51.7%
  2. Voting to Leave

    18 vote(s)
    30.0%
  3. Undecided

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Not voting

    11 vote(s)
    18.3%
  1. 741852963

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    I think thats an absolute fallacy. There were a multitude of factors at play (most of them having nothing to do with the EU leaving):
    -Spiting David Cameron for austerity cuts
    -Spiting David Cameron for just being David Cameron
    -"Making Britain British" (i.e. white) = casual racism
    -Misinformation about the EU's cost and benefit
    -Misunderstanding the situation post leave/consequences (i.e. recession, Scotland leaving, trade problems, domestic and international relations)

    To say that everyone voting Leave were thoroughly informed and doing so of honest intent is a joke.

    Additionally, if that were truly the case you would not have such a clear difference amongst demographics. Which leads me to:

    It was a small majority that ignored the wishes of those most effect (16-18 year olds) whilst including those minimally affected (70+ year olds) by the results.

    Over 2 million 16-18 year olds who may be working and paying taxes were refused a vote on a key referendum affecting their lives.

    So to call this a pure and democratic result is false.

    Just look at the evidence of how this would have swung things:

    EU Referendum Results: Young 'Screwed By Older Generations' As Polls Suggest 75% Backed Remain

    ---------- Post added 24th Jun 2016 at 09:25 AM ----------

    Agreed fully.

    I think when we have a decision on a change so drastic relying on a simple majority (50.1%+) is grossly unfair.

    We should require overwhelming public support to implement change, not leave it on a knife edge.

    Incidentally, if the Referendum was ran again today, with people aware that the dire consequences unfolding were not just empty threats, do you think we would even have 52%? Absolutely not, it would be 40/60 to Remain.
     
  2. Tyler hereforu

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    Wrong.
    It's proof that wisdom comes at a certain age and that minors are rightly denied the right to vote :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    Of course it is a democratic outcome. Your argument is nonsense. If you are not happy with the outcome, look for other reasons why the outcome is at it is, but this is a non-argument. Rules are rules. You also cannot simply conclude that 16-18 yrs old would vote as 18-24 years did. And pray, why not let 12-16 yrs old vote, too?

    It's not that strange that young people voted more in favour of remaining: they are completely brainwashed by EU propaganda, too young to know how things were without EU.

    I find it amusing to see that those against leaving find it so hard to accept they lost.
     
  3. Aberrance

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    Sure, they can have their opinion. They can ignore facts and figures and their children's pleas for remain and do the opposite just for shits and giggles when they're not even going to be here to experience the forthcoming. It won't affect them in any way whatsoever. But it's okay because they get their opinion. What about the opinion of the 16-17 year olds who are working, paying taxes and have properly done their research? The people who it's actually going to affect? Where does their opinion come in? If they decreased the age of voting to 16 you could have guaranteed remain winning by a couple million. It's crazy how demographics swayed the vote. Something like leaving the EU shouldn't be implemented on a couple percentage. There should be a definitely majority. Half the country doesn't want this.

    Obviously you didnt want out. If you wanted to leave you would have voted leave. It'd be pretty ignorant and childish just to vote leave to go against the government though. People should at least act like they've researched the shitstorm the economy will decend into if they're going to vote out.
     
    #123 Aberrance, Jun 24, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
  4. Umme

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    The value of the pound sterling has already gone down a lot and is going to continue going down. You will pay more for importing, get less from exporting. Shipping with other countries will go down 20%. Scotland may leave Britain.
     
  5. Libertino

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    Sorry, but claiming that the side you disagree with is "brainwashed" is about the weakest of arguments. You're calling on 741852963 to examine other factors, yet your scapegoat explanation for the "remain" votes is "brainwashing"? Examine your hypocrisy, please.
     
  6. Tyler hereforu

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    It was very predictable that these things would happen. These are short-term phenomena. Only 2 to 5 years later any sensible conclusions can be drawn.
    And who knows, maybe by then the euro is worthless and Britain happy not be a part of the EU anymore. The European Central Bank is printing euros out of thin air: 60-80 billions a month. Do you think that will be without consequences? And yes, I know you still have your pound but even then, if the Eurozone collapses, it will cause big damage also to the British economy. Even now that you are out, a collapsing euro could cause a lot of damage to you and the global economy, but to a lesser extent.
     
  7. 741852963

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    I suppose you would describe the baby boomers vehemently against gay-marriage (and sharing the exact same connections to far-right political institutions as many Leave voters) as "wise" then?

    No, age does not guarantee experience, it can bring the exact opposite: rigid viewpoints and dated opinion.

    I've provided several reasons why the vote is as its is in my previous comment: racism, xenophobia, government cuts and disenfranchisement, EU scapegoating.

    And there is a bit of a difference between 16-17 year olds who can legally work full time, pay full UK taxes, drive cars, join the army etc etc and 12-15 year olds who cannot.

    What EU propaganda?

    As a young person myself I've been raised on nothing but anti-EU sentiment from baby boomers and vocal radical politicians/parties like Nigel Farage, UKIP, the BNP.

    From the very first awareness I had of politics criticism of the EU was rife.

    So this idea that young people are "brainwashed", "misinformed" or incapable of making an informed decision is a fallacy.

    The opposite is true, we have been fed so much anti-EU propaganda that in order to have not been brainwashed and make a pro-EU decision we probably hold the most well-rounded thoughts on this issue in the entire country.
     
  8. PatrickUK

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    There was no shortage of money pouring into the leave campaign, I can assure you, and there are people on the leave side who have made it their sole purpose in public life to extract us from the EU, so I don’t buy into the argument that they had limited time. These people have spent years (decades) making bogus claims about the EU... I am old enough to have witnessed it and I'm only too aware of the damage it has done to the governance of the UK, and that's precisely why David Cameron called this referendum.
     
  9. Tyler hereforu

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    There are a lot of factors of course, but it's no secret that the EU spends a LOT on influencing the public opinion. At least they try - not always succesfully Brexit showed us.
    I call it brainwashing, you may call it differently - as long as we understand each other. One could also say that the EU heavily invests in advertising itself - maybe those words are more to your liking?

    ---------- Post added 24th Jun 2016 at 10:24 AM ----------

    Of course I was joking :icon_bigg
    My point was that rules are rules, you cannot change them because you don't like the outcome.

    These may be factors that played a role to make the Leave vote win, but I hope you are aware that it is quite offensive to think that all Leave voters voted for these reasons.


    You might be right as far as this one is concerned. In the Netherlands we DID and do have EU propaganda so much it makes you vomit. Except for the party of Mr Wilders, there is no party that wants to leave the EU.

    ---------- Post added 24th Jun 2016 at 10:33 AM ----------

    I read that Cameron called the referendum to prevent the right wing of his party to join UKIP.
    But, to be honest, why Cameron called the referendum can only be speculated about. Maybe he wanted the UK to leave the EU, despite him asserting the contrary. Maybe he has his own reasons, reasons we don't know. After all, it must have been clear for him from the start that he was playing with fire.

    And as I said in a message above: Maybe it was different for you in the UK and you got more negative than positive information about the EU. So I retract my words about brainwashing. Here in the Netherlands the situation is very different: we have been brainwashed for decades with all kind of lies, white lies, half truths and so on.
     
  10. GeeLee

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    Stop listening to Geert Wilders then :icon_wink
     
  11. 741852963

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    I don't think you can label this short-term or minimal impact.

    We now have a strong chance of Scotland leaving the Union after hundreds of years (which will cause a further recession), and will likely replace an already right-wing PM with an even extremer version.

    Rules are not rules. We create rules.

    There was nothing preventing the referendum being set with a higher limit for a win - plenty of referendums do this, and when you have a decision that is either status quo or radical change (i.e. rather than a simple choice between two new outcomes) then it makes sense to do this.

    There is being offensive and then facing the facts.

    You have not had to witness UKIP, the BNP and EDL with their many supporters. You haven't had to witness the anger, racism, and homophobia expressed on masse by these people. These groups are not minorities here.

    I'm certain not every leave voter falls into this category and has these viewpoints. But I am certain a majority do, as I have eyes and ears.

    You only have to look at the murder of Jo Cox. Was the attacker an anomaly? In his actions yes, in his demeanour and sentiment, absolutely not. My area is swarming with people who prior to the attack would be sharing a drink with the man.

    Angry people looking for their next scapegoat to blame for their exagerated problems. Blaming the Government, the PM, the EU, for their lack of job whilst smoking welfare-bought cigarettes on the doorstep in their PJs, or drinking in the pub from dawn-dusk. That is the reality where I live. There are plenty enough jobs, but there are also plenty of self-entitled people who do not help themselves.

    And it is unsurprising to me that my country was a particularly high Leave vote.

    That is the Netherlands and on the mainland, here things are much more subtle and i cannot say propaganda has reached most places. About the extent of "propaganda" in my area is EU labelling of funded construction projects. By contrast you see "Vote Leave if You Care About Britain", "Take Britain Back from our Oppressors", "Make Britain British Again" plastered everywhere.
     
  12. Pret Allez

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    Brexit proves that ethical capacity attenuates with age.
     
  13. emmadances

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    I'm too young to vote.

    Normally I don't get all riled up. But this one person got me very angry. It was a woman being interviewed in a vox pop segment, and asked why she voted leave, and how she thought it would affect her life. She said she had no idea.
    This made me angry because she made the decision without being informed. I know that it is really hard when noone is telling us anything.

    We need a better political education. I think there should be something mandatory for people to have to read to introduce them into politics. I'm not going to do a politics a level, I've chosen sciences and philosophy, but I still want to know about politics.

    Also I think the voting age should be lowered to 16. lots of the voters will be dead soon whereas we are going to have to deal with the consequences of all your decisions for at least 60 years.

    And just because you are an adult it doesn't mean you are not an idiot.

    ---------- Post added 24th Jun 2016 at 10:59 AM ----------

    By the way I'm not saying that I'm not an idiot. I am. But so are lots of people and they get to vote. Many
     
  14. SHACH

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    I have never been so distraught about a political decision in my life. Lost faith in Britain, lost my European identity, lost financial stability in my future. All overnight. I had to check 3 time this morning that this wasn't an evil dream. All day I have been glued to the guardian live page and fb just in disbeleif... I can't even.
     
  15. Spartan 117

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    Angry and confused.

    I'm off on a trip to Scotland next week. I've told my friends that I won't be coming back. They all think I'm joking. :dry:
     
  16. lemons123

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    I'd try to cheer you up a bit and remind you that the Brexit is NOT the end of the world.

    Though if you're looking for a real reason to worry then ask yourself about potential consequences of the UKIP gaining more and more power and siding with Russia 10 years from today. That's a real concern and something that should be prevented.

    Leaving the EU again means simple things such as 20% vat, visa for Spain travels etc.
     
  17. Dobby

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    my brother is 17years and feels european and couldn't vote to stay yet my slightly racist 81year old neighbour who is not going to live much longer could vote to leave.

    (roughly 25% of young people voted to leave (75% stay) and 60somthing% of over 65 years voted to leave)

    I am so angry. this is not what we wanted for our future . and we have to live with the consequences. they have stolen part of my identity.

    I am ashamed to be british. there is so much racism floating about and immigration became a central reason for people to vote leave, it sickens me.

    i refuse to accept it and am trying to channel my anger into something positive and productive, i do believe that there is a faint glimmer of hope for a second eu referendum and different decision. i am currently searching for that way to be productive.

    also conscious that all this tension is building so many walls and so (after this vent post) I will not express unnecessary negativity.

    I've discussed leaving britain to my parents in a worse case scenario.

    heartbroken.
     
  18. Andrew99

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  19. Synesthesia

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    This whole thing is really pissing me off. Can't be bothered to make a more extensive post but yeah. Venting.
     
  20. GeeLee

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    I couldn't understand why 16 year olds were considered mature enough to make an informed decision about Scotland's independence but not mature enough to make an informed decision about leaving the EU.

    When I come to power either the voting age is coming down or teenagers are going to be barred from certain things until they're 18.