I want to make a real difference in my church to help it become more LGBT inclusive. I'm currently writing a letter to start this process and I wondered if anyone had any advice for me/ideas of things to include/bible references etc. The church is a combination of Methodist, Baptist and United Reformed Church and I'm in the UK. Any help at all is appreciated.
- Jesus had two dads and he turned out fine - God is omnibelevolent and therefore loves everyone - I'm pretty sure Levictus 20:13 is refering only to when men used to pay families to give them their boys and what we'd know today as rape them, so has nothing to do with consentual adults - Homosexuality is natural to a homosexual person, as is heterosexuality to a heterosexual person. They are right in thinking homosexuality wouldn't be natural to a heterosexual person, as would not be heterosexuality to a homosexual person. - God created the rainbow after Noah's Ark washed away the sinners, if God didn't want gay people there he could have washed them away with the sinners, but gay people still exist so God must think it's not a sin. [Genesis 9, 13-16] Have a Church-LGBT fusion event [LGBT-Church fusion music would be good].
Well, if they are like "Hmm..." or not very accepting, I find that the main thing needed when talking to people like that is superhuman patience. If they are not accepting, that is because they have a negative image of LGBT stuff. Therefore, you must get the basic truth that LGBT people are not so different from non-LGBT people into their heads without getting too worked up and instilling cognitive dissonance in them. Good luck.
I would suggest you not use any bible references. The bible can be read to say whatever you already believe. Given the many wildly different interpretations of what 'God' wants, I would not go down that road at all. Especially since religiously minded people are perfectly capable of ignoring what they do not like in the bible and picking just what they want to hear. I would suggest you leave putting anything in writing until you have at least a network of support within the organisation. So start by putting out feelers for like minded or supportive people. Talk to them quietly about if you can rely on their support if you come out. Build on that support, perhaps organise a meeting or try to raise money for a related charity or organisation from within the church. I think you will find some churches are more tolerant than others, even within the same denomination. Personally, as an atheist, I think arguing with Christians is rather pointless, they will choose to believe whatever they like, and then justify that with their interpretation of whatever they can find they think supports their view. However, I admire your desire to help other people in your situation. Perhaps you could do more good outside of the church rather than in it. Wishing you all the best, xxx
In my opinion trying to get a church to change it's opinion is like trying to persuade a lion to turn vegetarian. Using bible references to back up your point is like poking the lion with a sharp stick. I'm not saying it can't be done but first there has to be a reason for them to change and secondly they would have to change with you, not because of you. There is no example I know of, for any church to change it's views, other than declining numbers of believers and reduced income or power. Sadly LGBT issues are small fish compared to the greater problems most churches are facing and in fact for some, being ant-LGBT is what attracts and retains so many existing followers. ---------- Post added 6th May 2016 at 06:08 PM ---------- Also, this.
If we really want change we have to talk to the people who disagree with us. I know there is some support for LGBT in the church, we don't have an actual policy on the issue yet, so there is an opportunity there. ---------- Post added 6th May 2016 at 06:56 PM ---------- Our church is not openly for or against LGBT, it is not a selling point for us. We have a declining congregation - particularly in the younger age ranges, so supporting LGBT would be one way of attracting more young people to the church. What do you mean by "change with you, not because of you"?
I mean that if you can motivate and drive change amongst people by leading them, it is much easier than fighting them and trying to force them to the same goal. Belief isn't always rational, so trying to debate with logic or argue with facts is pointless and usually just reinforces a persons opposing belief. A persons belief can only change through experience and most importantly if they are willing.
Hmm, what you say is of course true, but it is very hard to have a rational conversation with people that believe completely irrational things. The United Reformed Church does already accept same sex unions, not sure about baptist and Methodist. How those two can join together I have never really understood. One lets bishops assign pastors, the other lets the congregations pick their own. Baptists believe once saved always saved, Methodists believe you can fall from grace after being saved. Baptists don't recognize early baptism, only confessional baptism in adults, Methodists baptize babies in all sorts of ways, baptists only by submersion. All of them believe their way was told to them by god, and is the only way to heaven. All of them believe in hell. So who in your congregation believe you are going to hell, and how believes you are going to heaven? You can talk to them, but to be honest, if it was not for legislation forcing acceptance, and for mainstream popular support for LBGT issues, these churches would certainly not be accepting of it. I hope you get somewhere with it, I really do. I hope you can change the irrational minds from their current course of discomfort with who you are, to acceptance, but by being part of your church you are continuing the idea that an almighty 'magic' entity is setting the moral rules for how we behave, through the power of dreams and visions, divine revelation and angels etc etc. I personally would take the stance of what your god says is meaningless because there is absolutely no evidence for your god, which makes it as important as what the elf living in my garden shed has to say on the matter. Thor in Valhalla was quite clear on the matter, die in battle, who cares if your gay or not, just die fighting and you can come to paradise. Hmm, so how much is that commandment observed? Sounds like a great chap doesn't he. So is my onesy a man or a womans garment? Perhaps we should talk about it and see if I am sinning or not. When exactly do knickers become pants, can pants be frilly? Lets pray and see what god thinks about my undies shall we? You can argue and try to change the church, or see it for what it is and leave it, like so many other people, the majority in fact, and help us to show the rest of the world that belief in superstitious nonsense always leads to intolerance and hatred and violence. Time to end it. Buddhist attacks on Muslims, Shiites attacking Sunnis, Christians attacking Jews, Jews attacking islamists, every bloody religion steeped in violence and intolerance of others because God told them it was so. I am sorry, I have gone on a bit of a rant and did not mean to. You are free to believe whatever you want of course. I would die for your right to believe what you want. Because, as an atheist and a humanist, I believe in freedom and tolerance, for rational and evidential reasons. Good luck xxx
Please don't try and tell me my faith is nonsense. The church is capable of change and always has been, the individuals of the church often have different views to the denomination as a whole. What drives change in the church are the members of the church not legislation. The legislation comes after the change has happened. If you do not believe in God I respect that, but please don't tell me what I believe or should believe.
Par, it might be a good idea to check out the website of Inclusive Church and the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement (both UK based organisations/charities) as a starting point. If you are interested, I can point you to more resources too. Send me a private message if you would like more information or help with this.