More of the same

With all due respect my friend, while you may be book smart about being gay, you still have a lot to learn through experiential learning. Until you kiss and make love with a guy you're really into, your understanding of what it is to be gay is strictly academic.

---------- Post added 17th Apr 2016 at 07:10 PM ----------

So why you find it difficult to be vulnerable with another man?

Unless you explore the world of BDSM, gay sex is not about dominance/submissiveness. Sure there's a top and bottom, though as a guy who is versatile I don't think of the bottom role as being the bitch.

 

Sent you a PM ...

 

The more I've thought about this, I've concluded that this is your cave and why you are stuck. Because you are afraid of the cave (being vulnerable and submissive with another man), you aren't able to surrender yourself (in the spiritual sense) and be open to the experience of bottoming and being gay. As a result, you cannot discover the treasure (accepting yourself as a gay man who prefers to bottom). There's also an element of control in the mix where you feel that if you surrender control, you will be a laughingstock or be taken advantage of. Unfortunately the net here is that you aren't inclined to do the things that are necessary for you to begin to accept yourself as a gay man, which is why you are stuck.

 

I think for people later in life trying to come out or peek out or imagine life outside of a closet... this is a common theme. I'm sure there are those who come to realize things and embrace themselves, their sexuality, their new life with 100% and just live the life. But I think most of us, and maybe even moreso the ones who made previous commitments such as marriage and/or children that the only option preferable to being gay is being crazy. Imagining the whole thing.

I don't know, just chiming in with my input. But the homophobia is so strong in me that I'd rather lose a limb, lose my health, my job, my parents, anything rather than be gay and come out to everyone in my life as a 'gay person'

 

The answer's simple: be a power bottom!

 

I relate 100%. For me it's more I've lost control of everything, my life is no longer going to plan and it sucks.

I like SiennaFire's proposal. But the only way I could find the strength to change was when staying the same got too painful and there was no other way. No therapy, advice, life experiences, mulling could make me change. Nothing could ultimately get me to change except myself and finding the motivation to do so was the hardest part of any of this. I wish you the best nerdbrain.

 

It sounds kind of like with guys, you need/want an emotional connection in order to have a successful sexual experience. You said you've hooked up with women just fine, but you seem to not have the same ease with men. The type of experience you have so far can be ironically pretty impersonal even though it is about as intimate as you get. I've done the random hookups. I've even done the escorts thing. And now I've done the thing where you're hooking up with a guy you really like, even on a friendship level. It's totally different and comes with a lot more trust and respect. Like, I never really thought about bottoming personally before meeting the guy I consider my best friend now. I barely even thought about topping to be honest. I just liked making out and oral sex. But with this particular guy, I felt very safe and very close to him, and it made me want to top him and eventually bottom for him. I've only done it with one other guy now still (and the first guy was involved at the time) and it's still not something I'd do for just anyone. Trust and comfort go a long way.

And I know it's sort of a catch-22, because you can't seem to let yourself be open enough to get close enough to a guy where the sexual experience could be great. But it really could be worth it. Maybe try meeting a guy on the basis of building a friendship that could develop into friends with benefits or something first without it needing to be diving feet first into full on dating. Just finding a guy you can build some comfort with and aren't just in it for the sex with.

 

Nerdbrain - The way you describe bottoming (not just here but in other threads and posts too) doesn't strike me as very sexual. It seems much more psychological.

It's as if you're engaged in a very deep internal fight. You totally don't want to be "feminine/humiliated/taken advantage" yet you're being challenged by (clinical) fantasies of exactly that. It's like an endless wrestling match where neither side scores any points, much less wins.

Generally speaking, the cure for fears is to face them head on. Since your big fear is being humiliated by bottoming, I wonder if you've ever done it? Especially an unrestrained session where you are someone's bitch - just as you fear.

After all the social things you've done to try to accept yourself as gay, perhaps it's time to take the physical plunge and see where that takes you?

 

The first step is to identify why you are stuck. The fact that you adamantly assert that you do not submit sexually to other men is corroborating evidence. If you are unable to confront this fear by forcing yourself to bottom, we'll need to explore other ideas.

Have you ever topped? Perhaps dominating another guy in raw sex is just the thing? Maybe something more egalitarian like frotting? Perhaps you need something more tender with a guy you care about?

If these words came from a straight person, I would take offense. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but honestly I'm taking offense from their coming from you as well. In any event, these are certainly not the words of a person who has healed his internalized homophobia and shame of being gay. Despite your assertions to the contrary earlier in this thread, you have work to do to overcome these in yourself.

While I initially didn't want to be gay, now I see things totally differently. What I wanted is irrelevant. It's a form of indulgence I cannot afford to participate in. I cannot change the fact that I'm gay, so I started to focus on what I could control and learned to accept myself. This appears to be another manifestation of your need to control. You want to control your sexuality but you cannot. Life will be so much better once you stop resisting. Today I'm glad that I get to be gay because this is who I am.

You are projecting your own self-loathing onto the participants of Gay Pride. Gay Pride is the ultimate expression of what it means to be out. It's more about saying we are gay and proud ride:

 

Nerdbrain, I am curious, when I follow your threads I struggle to see how you are actually benefiting and make real progress from all the advice you get. With that said, what are you looking for? Do you even know what your end game is?

 

I agree with Siena about the pride thing. I never used to get it but know I do. Why should people celebrate who they are, when they are different to the 'norm'. I think you are angry with them because they have what you want - clarity on your sexual orientation. keep going though.

---------- Post added 19th Apr 2016 at 05:05 AM ----------

I think you have to set your wife free. Think about the future imagine yourself growing old, who do you want that to be with.

---------- Post added 19th Apr 2016 at 05:06 AM ----------

Then see how it makes you feel.

 

I feel you. And it's like gay women aren't even visible, except the stereotypical ones. The 'femme' ones just blend into society and people assume they are just girl friends going out to dinner. And some gay men and some gay women are visible, but I do not relate with the very visible people at this point in time. #shame

I am choosing to continue therapy for this reason. Because my gay friends don't want to hear me "spew self hatred" and my straight friends don't understand what the big deal is.. just be gay and happy already. But the conditioning and the reactions and society are a big hurdle.

For me I am ok with it for a month or two and then I hate myself all over again. I'm not sure if any of my words are helpful but I just wanted you to know I relate. You're not alone in this. It's hard. As you said, no one ever chose to be gay. I heard it takes 2-3 years to come to terms with oneself, so I am trying to be patient with myself. I hope you try to be patient with yourself too, you're only human.

 

Your internal tug-of-war about bottoming appears to be epicenter around which the rest of your life revolves. From all that you've said, I can't see how ANY "resolution" that doesn't directly address that struggle is a resolution at all.

It's easy for me to say this because I'm not the one suffering, but the obvious answer is that you need to experience bottoming multiple times, with multiple men, regardless of how turned on you might be. (And bottoming isn't an event, btw, it's a process. How you feel about it can change dramatically in a matter of minutes, days and weeks.)

Dealing with this fear/fantasy head-on is the one, relatively simple action you can take to get out of the state of purgatory you and your wife have been in these past several years.

 

nerdbrain

Have you ever explored your fantasy using a dildo or other toy?

 

When I was in high school I was envious of certain guys with girlfriends. In hindsight as I look back as a gay man, I thought those guys were cute and I wanted them. Similarly, I agree that you identify with the woman and long to be seduced by the guy in the video. In fact I thought that even before I read your subsequent paragraph where you stated your theory.

You also know that bottoming will feel amazing based on your masturbatory explorations; moreover, you've already submitted to a man, namely, yourself and the model for your dildo.

All you need to do now is find a guy to pursue you and seduce you with his persistence and eloquent prose. Let go of your preconceived heteronormative notions of "being the bitch" and allow your gayness to flow through you like the ocean. It's useless to resist; it's who you are and your only lever of control is to accept yourself or not. Feel the authentic power of your gay self. It will comfort you like a warm blanket once you stop fighting yourself. Give yourself to the dark side; it's the only way to find the light.