1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The argument that homosexuality is the product of a person's environment

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by rudysteiner, Mar 21, 2016.

  1. rudysteiner

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2015
    Messages:
    684
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Liverpool, UK
    Hey everyone,

    For my Psychology class, my teacher has split the class into two and asked us to argue whether homosexuality is nature or nurture. He has asked me (and my side of the class) to argue that homosexuality is the product of a person's environment (nurture). He has given my side nurture because he knows I'm very nonchalant about my sexuality and wants to challenge me.

    I love a good debate on most subjects, but with being gay myself, I'm absolutely stumped. I don't believe that homosexuality is nature or nurture, I believe it's both, but I can't extract exactly why I think it's nurture.

    Does anyone have any reasonable points as to why it could be nurture, to get me started? It doesn't have to be safe for work.
     
  2. Secrets5

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,964
    Likes Received:
    77
    Location:
    UK
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Maybe if someone was abused by someone of the opposite sex in early life, particularly sexually, [I'd say before the age of two when brain patterns are most shapeable] then their brain pattern may have been changed to be able to have a satisfying life with the same sex [excluding social homophobia] rather than an anxious one with the opposite sex.

    If there is a high population [of one sex] in the area that they are, then people, regardless of biological sexuality, may engage in same-sex activities to reduce the population. This can be seen in China where a lack of females meant that males were getting together for loving relationships. I know this isn't sexuality and more about sexual relationships, but might be a point of discussion.
     
  3. guitar

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Southern Ontario, Canada
    While the teacher has given you a good thought exercise, and it is always good to play devil's advocate in a debate to strengthen your own arguments, sadly all of the evidence basically points to nature. Studies of the brain, twins, homosexuality being found across the animal kingdom, gay people being in cultures where being gay can get you killed, etc. all point to biology rather than environment.

    I suppose some reasons for environment *could be* (but aren't proven as far as I know): spending too much time with your opposite sex parent and/or having the same sex parent be absent, not being pushed into traditionally gendered activities (such as not playing sports if you're a boy), being allowed to watch lgbt characters on TV which would make you identify with lgbt people, perhaps you had a gay uncle who "influenced" your behaviors, sexual abuse vby the same (or opposite?) sex.... Religious people might argue something along the lines of you haven't asked for God's forgiveness enough or been spiritual enough. You've been tempted by some evil force / Satan.
     
    #3 guitar, Mar 21, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  4. Schloss

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2015
    Messages:
    149
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Beirut
    Gender:
    Male
    Out Status:
    Some people
    The argument that homosexuality is due to environmental factors plays in to the game of the opponents, ie. the more fundamental strati of our world. When you bring environmental factors in your argument, you'll realise that you won't find a single positive factor. They're almost entirely negative. If you're ready to make that compromise, there's plenty of resources out there that will explain these factors, some of them being:

    - having an absent father (particularly for male homosexuals), causing for a longing of a father figure that is sought after sexually.
    - the fact that if one identical twin is gay, there's only 15% chance the other will be too. If it were 100%, nature would win.
    - excessive trauma/abuse experienced during childhood (especially during the phallic stage according to Freud)
    - and many, many more

    This certainly doesn't apply to all homosexuals. There are many homosexuals who've had almost no problems in their childhood and have had a decent upbringing. Then again, there are those who have not. I think it will always remain an enigma. And that's quite a beautiful thing. :slight_smile:
     
  5. greatwhale

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,582
    Likes Received:
    413
    Location:
    Montreal
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    There are three facts (as opposed to opinions in a debate) that convince me that nurture has very little to do with being homosexual:

    1) It is everywhere, independent of culture or ethnicity. It is present in all cultures and in all ethnicities.

    2) There is a statistically significant chance that the younger of several male siblings will be homosexual

    3) Homosexuality is a fact of nature in non-human species.

    The only argument you can make is to resort to facts, then get your opponent to agree that they are, indeed, facts.
     
  6. guitar

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Southern Ontario, Canada
    The numbers I've seen put this at 50% or higher, which in this case would indicate nature. But seeing as only 3-6% of the population is gay, even if it is 15%, that would still indicate a pull toward nature.

    Edit: It appears we're both sort of right:
    a Northwestern University Study released in 1991 that found 52 percent of identical twin brothers of gay men also were gay. This sharply contrasts to just a 22 percent rate among fraternal twins, and an 11 percent rate between genetically unrelated brothers (i.e. siblings who are not the product of one egg splitting or sharing a womb).
     
    #6 guitar, Mar 21, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  7. Euler

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    Northern Europe
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Well, this is a debate that you cannot really win by using actual evidence as the actual evidence is clear that there is strong "nature" component at play here. However, your game is not lost yet you got two options:

    1) The rhetorical game where you basically discredit the opponents and create doubt about their position.

    2) You shift the goal post. You could try arguing that there might be different causes for being gay. In other words, being gay is just a symptom like fever. There could be more than one reason why person has fever ranging from malaria to flue. Some people might indeed be gay by birth and that this would be evident from a very early age through gender non-conformity and sexual response to same-sex stimulus. Then there might be people who have disposition towards becoming a gay and those people could be pushed over to becoming gay by environmental factors such as traumas or parental neglect, chemical exposure etc. These could be the people who discover they are gay at much later age, possibly at or after puberty (even after factoring out that some people are just in deep denial).

    This would be actually consistent with the current research although there is as far as I know no study that would suggest that there could be multiple causes. It would explain why not 100% of identical twins are gay but that they are at significantly higher "risk" of being gay is their twin is gay. It might also explain bisexuality to some degree. Perhaps the environmental factor could increase homosexual urges but lacking strength would not suppress the interest to the opposite sex.
     
  8. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    4,750
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I'd suggest looking at the environmental (epigenetic) impact on genetics.

    There's some interesting research being done on certain degenerative diseases. ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease) is one of them. There's no question there's a genetic component to ALS, and yet, there are some people who have the trait, and do not get the disease.

    Gabor Maté MD is one of the best sources I know of for this sort of information. His book "The Body Says No" talks about it in detail, and cites dozens of scientific references for that viewpoint.

    Also, there's some interesting and concerning statistics surrounding childhood male sexual abuse. Some studies have shown that about 40% of childhood male sexual abuse survivors, when they grow up, identify as gay. And yet, there's pretty convincing evidence that the abuse itself does not appear to have any influence on sexual identity. I've seen various explanations, including that the unconscious personality factors that abusers use to choose their victims might actually be predictors that the child is actually gay, but we don't know for sure. You could be a little misleading and quote that statistic without mentioning that it thought to be explained by other factors.

    I unfortunately don't have citations for this offhand, but there isn't all that much study in the field so if you have access to a good research database, you should be able to come up with the studies I'm speaking of.

    Also, many of the studies in the field of human sexuality are pretty abysmal in terms of research methodologies, study design, and interpretation of data, so if you have an idea of what the other side is going to cite, it would likely be pretty easy to rip apart the studies the other side is using to justify their point.
     
  9. peachygogh

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2015
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    new york
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I don't see how it is nurture, because there are people who grow up in families who a very religious, and homophobic, and are taught that homosexuality is wrong, and still be homosexual, while children who grow up with parents of the same sex can be straight, or even homophobic. I just believe that your sexuality is part of who you are. Plus, homosexuality occurs in species other than humans, which also hints that sexuality is a product of nature.
     
    #9 peachygogh, Mar 21, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  10. Aerin

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    Gender:
    Female
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    So what I think is that homosexuality is definitely based primarily in nature, but I think that nurture can play a role too. Especially for women. I think that women tend to be a little more fluid in their sexuality.

    The brain can physically change shape as a result of our environment, even throughout adulthood. I think that some people are capable of loving the same-sex by being open-minded about it.
     
  11. Aerin

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    Gender:
    Female
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    So what I think is that homosexuality is definitely based primarily in nature, but I think that nurture can play a role too. Especially for women. I think that women tend to be a little more fluid in their sexuality.

    The brain can physically change shape as a result of our environment, even throughout adulthood. I think that some people are capable of loving the same-sex by being open-minded about it.
     
  12. Weregild

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2015
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Brazil
    Gender:
    Female
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    If women were not so objectified I might've never noticed them. But that's a mere speculation. It's obvious that we're all products of the society and environment we're brought up in. Funny that we never pose the same question to heterosexuality standards, though.
     
  13. 741852963

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Could it not be argued that perhaps there is not just one avenue to being gay, or one type of homosexuality.

    So could we have people who express same sex attraction due to trauma or upbringing, and simultaneously have other people who are just naturally gay? Perhaps the former aren't "truly gay" instead just experience "symptomatic" homosexuality (being perpetually attracted to their abuser's type/gender sort of like Stockholm syndrome*)?

    Perhaps as an example similar to how you can have two people with the same brown skin - one because they were born with that tone (genetics), and one because they have been exposed to environmental factors and been tanned (environment). Same end result, but different routes.

    *This would only really explain instances of male homosexuality though, as most female abuse victim experience abuse from men also, unless it has the opposite effect on women, driving them away from heterosexuality? That seems unlikely.
     
  14. happydavid

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,617
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    A town near Birmingham England
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I can't give you an honest opinion because I don't know know