Should we care?

I'm not saying that Gay Pride parades are the reason why conservatives dislike gays, not at all. Probably significant fraction of conservatives will never change their view no matter what gays do. However, even if people disagree on opinions they are not always vocal about them in order to avoid offending other people holding contrary opinions. If the other party behaves in a civil and non-provocative way the other party is also more likely to reciprocate. I have friends who vehemently disagree with my views on immigration policy yet they have the courtesy of accepting that we disagree and not give me shit about them. I give them the same courtesy.

However, then there are those people who hold no strong opinion one way or another. The extreme behavior such as the more outlandish gay pride parades might sway their opinion against things such as gay marriage on emotional grounds and out of fear that the "gay lobby" has hidden agenda of perhaps loosening sexual morals.

Exactly. Even the word LGBT rights in my opinion is oxymoron in a sense that in my view there are no straight or LGBT rights - there are just human or individual rights shared by everyone. Virtually all valid LGBT issues could framed from human rights perspective and if they cannot be then it is not in my opinion an equal rights issue at all.

Anti-discrimination laws and hate crime laws are what I see the greatest source of injustice where the LGBT community wants to get rights over straights. Let me explain what I mean. I have no big objections about a general prohibition of discrimination meaning that no one should be denied service or job without a valid reason. However, it seems that in practice these laws protect only selected minorities. Businesses are allowed to choose their customers on arbitrary grounds as long as the reason isn't sexual orientation. This is wrong. Either private businesses should have absolute freedom to choose their customers or then they should not have that freedom.

My second objection to the anti-discrimination laws stem from the fact that these laws in practice utilize reversed burden of proof. So instead of the alleged victim having to prove that he was victim of discrimination it's up to the defendant to prove that he didn't discriminate. This goes against the principle of one being innocent until proven guilty. This flips the principle upside down: guilty until proven innocent.

Hate crime laws are the most blatant violation of equality before the law there is. Most hate crime laws more or less also rely on reversed burden of proof because the hate motive is very difficult to prove. So in practice very low standard is placed on the evidence. This in practice leads to a situation where if a gay or other member of a "protected minority" is a victim of crime the perpetrator is more likely to get more severe punishment irrespective of if there was a hate motive or not.

I could also ask, does it really matter why a crime happened. Does it somehow hurt less if you were beaten to pulp because the offender didn't like your face instead of beating you for being gay? Why should beating a gay be more punishable than beating say a communist or a vegan?

A gay friend of mine abused the hate crime law in my country. He got into a drunken fight with a random guy late in the night. The other guy beat him up and left. My friend called the cops, started acting super gay and accused the other guy for beating him up because he was gay. The offender was arrested.

In the court my friend accused him of homophobic hate crime. The accused was astonished as he had no idea my friend was gay and he denied having beaten him up because he is gay but because it was a drunken fight. My friend lied that he had said him homophobic stuff and he once played the role of a stereotypical gay in the court. Witnesses didn't recall the offender having said any homophobic stuff but that he might had called my friend a "faggot" (a common insult to any guy irrespective if he is gay or not). Yet he got extra punishment for having committed a hate crime. Privately my friend admitted that he didn't think the guy even knew he was gay but he felt that he was within his rights to put the criminal into jail for a longer time. I was appalled.

---------- Post added 1st Feb 2016 at 09:09 PM ----------

And there are good and bad ways to fight erasure.

Why is the oppression of minorities a matter of care? Groups have no rights, only individuals. To my it is a dangerous side track to talk about minority rights and minority oppression when the real issue is that individuals are being oppressed.

 

Describe for me, please, exactly how defending a gay student from harassment is *not* using their position as a platform to influence the way children think about LGBT people? To me, your position appears inconsistent/conflicted.

My dear, exactly what do you think an oppressed minority looks like? You clearly felt your freedom of speech restricted in that scenario. Not by law, no, but by custom and threat of repercussion in your community. It would not have been ok to speak up against somebody blasting LGBT people...*certainly* would not have been ok for you to say "look, this is offensive...he's talking about *me* here!"...how is this not being/feeling oppressed?

I think you need to continue to process these issues. You appear to still have quite a bit of conflict between what you believe to be right and your positions on these issues.

 

I think that the repression of homophobic views is inevitable as lgbt rights become more wide spread. It is the natural way of things. Those people that have those views will be called bigoted because the public opinion is against them. This is basically coming down a battle of two differing views freedom of speech. We have just as much of a right to express our views as they have to express theirs. So if we happen to gain the upper hand, then that's amazing. There's no reason to try to protect their views to our detriment just because they aren't popular views. Do you get what I mean? It's the same thing with women's rights. If someone called a women sweet heart out beautiful in a professional setting a while ago it would be OK. But now it's offensive and that view is repressed. That's called progress! Im sure some men were morally opposed to the idea of equality but that doesn't mean you shouldn't fight for it.

 

I'll have to admit...I am one of those people who stares. The thing is though, it isn't because I think it's wrong...it's simply that anything different causes me to be curious, and sometimes genuinely interested.

 

Admittedly sometimes I do catch myself doing that because I don't see it happen often enough, then I stop to think, "Why does that seem abnormal when it totally isn't?" and then I feel bad. Personally I haven't been around anything queer in my life except through the media, so it does make me curious and interested, but at the same time, it feels strange because it doesn't happen often enough in public.

Now I feel like this post makes me a hypocrite about everything I said. Or maybe it proved my point. I don't know.

 

I dunno, I kinda dont

 

Yes, everybody has a right to speak their opinion. But just bashing something for no good reason isn't helping anyone in any way and it's really just immature imo.

I can understand that it's tough for christians to change their mind like *snip* that when they grew up like that their entire life. They were raised and told that it's wrong since they were little, so you can't really blame them.
I know though that there's religious christians who really want to understand and support the LGBTQ community, so that's a good sign.
If we just imagine how people thought about this issue (not just religious people but everyone) a few decades ago it's insane how far we've come.
I believe we deserve a banana dance. (!)

 

My cunning plan is to make pride parades really, really boring, so somebody could come along and think 'is this what gay people are really like? Normal and nothing special? Well Screw this eastenders is on in 2 minutes.' This is what we should be doing, not (what happen at a pride parade, mainly the raunchier ones). It'd make people not care if somebody's gay because these'd show that gay people are normal!

But eh, who gives a about what people think, if they care they can do something about it, but you aren't them so who cares.

 

Why do we care if straight people agree?

The LGBT(QA...) community cares because up until a few years ago, many of us were not just encouraged to rot in the closet, we were locked in.

Check out this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkSd4UhgsGw

This is what a lot of people, both christian and not, think about gays and lesbians. None of the things said in this video are true, but if I was gay I would have to explain to genuinely ignorant and hateful people how I was not a pedophile, and that I am actually a person.

We care because until the HIV panic slowed became more talked about it was known as a homosexual's disease.

We care because even in areas where we are ignored, we are not celebrated or considered an asset to the community. We are frowned at for not conforming and oppressed into silence.

We care because children are taught to fear us as predatory monsters.

We care because hate-filled people have not only discriminated against us, they've killed us and no one has done anything because we are LGBT(QA...).

At my school they have a Christian's Athlete Association but no Gay-Straight Alliance program. In my area there is one LGBT friendly church that the KKK threatened to march against (because the KKK is against gay marriage, y'all).

I care because I'm afraid if I come out my mom will throw me out of the house and I will have no where to go. I care because I'm the only trans person at my school, and I am afraid to tell anyone. I care because after I go to college I want to be able to get a great job without worrying about homelessness or discrimination or hate. I care because people won't stop referring to me as my birth name and they continually discourage me to be what I want to be and instead push me into being whatever they find acceptable. I care because I consider myself a Christian, and I think Jesus would be appalled if he saw the hate and hurt being dealt by blind, apathetic churchgoers, who, in the end, are hypocrites anyway.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as gay pride parades go, it's our way of pushing back against the oppression we feel. It's us boldly declaring that we think it's GREAT to be gay and in such a way that we all feel affirmed and happy and not alone.

And if straight people can handle Mardi Gras, then they can handle a pride parade.

Sorry, my emotions got a little strong there and I just had to type how I was feeling.

 

Sorry, but you're totally and completely wrong here.

Christians can, do, and have changed their beliefs constantly throughout the entire history of Christianity. Where do you think all the different Christian denominations came from?

Depending on when in history we are talking about Christians have tortured and killed people over minor differences in doctrine, despite some quite explicit direction in the Bible about 'thou shalt not kill'.

More recently, Christians pointed to the Bible as providing divine justification for keeping people as property.

Then there's the various and sundry prohibitions in the Bible (some of them punishable by death) that no one follows anymore like not eating shellfish or wearing clothes made out of mixed fabrics and the like.

Coming at this from the other direction, there are various Christian denominations (Episcopalians and Unitarians, among others) that now support LGBT people and perform same-sex marriages.

Finally, you say that Christians 'can't' even be asked to think different or can't think differently followed immeidately by directly stating that you think differently from a whole lot of Christians who say we are horrible and should be forced to change or even imprisioned or killed. So even here and now your statement is proof that Christians do change and/or interpret the Bible differently or you and these other people would not be having a difference of opinion on this matter.

Todd

 

This doesn't sound mean or aggressive. It just sounds ridiculous. This is like saying that asking someone to consider alternate interpretations of an artwork or revising their political stance is as bad as asking someone to change their eye color. I've never seen research suggest that some people are simply born with a particular interpretation of Christianity.

 

Yeah - what she said.

In addition, people are not, by and large, demanding that anyone change their religious beliefs. What we are demanding is to be treated like everyone else. There are plenty of other things mentioned in the Bible as being sinful, but by and large you don't see people (including Christian people) making a big deal out of them.

Divorce is a no-no in the Bible. But do you see Christian wedding cake makers or photographers citing their religious beliefs and refusing to provide services to people getting married for the second or third or whatever time? No, you do not.

Do you see Christian owned and operated restaurants refusing to serve people who come in wearing clothes made of multiple fabrics or who mention that they ate shellfish the night before? Or indicate they had sex outside of marriage the night before? No, you do not.

In most cases, the reason for this is that things have changed and the Christians in question have chosen to ignore or no longer follow those particular scriptures. In other cases they take the attitude that while they may disapprove of Behavior X, they don't engage in it and it's not their business to make a big deal out of it, especially when there is money to be made. So, applying some special standard to homosexuality as a horrible 'sin' on the pretext of 'the unalterable word of God' while ignoring or just putting up with all kinds of other supposed 'sins' is nothing less than rank hypocrisy. The more so when the Christians in question routinely engage in some of the sins in question.

Todd

 

I have no time or respect for people's personal beliefs when it comes to matters regarding sexuality, race or gender - these are intrinsic things that cannot be changed, unlike religion which is wholly a choice and should have no legal protection whatsoever as far as I'm concerned. Religion isn't inbuilt - it's an invention of man, created to instill fear, to control the feeble-minded and to explain things that couldn't be explained 2000 years ago. The fact that anyone is religious at all in the 21st century but more particularly in the Western world is absolutely astounding.

Quite frankly, anyone who claims that their sexuality is their choice is a fucking moron and has absolutely no business being involved in anything LGBT-related. These people deserve to be shunned because they are damaging and dangerous. I cannot believe stupidity of this level is even real. We have fought so hard over the past 4 decades to gain societal acceptance and people like this turn up and try to pretend that they 'chose' to be a lesbian - how utterly degrading to the millions of LGBT individuals who throughout history have struggled with bullying, heckling, violence or worse - all to be told by one little girl that she chose to be a lesbian. FFS.

---------- Post added 3rd Feb 2016 at 04:26 PM ----------

Or, conversely, these people are seriously in denial and need professional help because they are clearly not at peace with who they are so need to delude themselves into believing that they can be 'normal' if they want. Either way, not a good thing at all.

 

Well, I'd like to add though that there's also gay people who grew up as christians and believe in God anyway, they don't throw away their religious belief just because they don't really follow the bible exactly.

Besides, I'm catholic as well. And the base of christian belief is Love. To love your fellow person, a lot of things in the bible is just stuff that some people put in there over the time. And I don't think someone is not a real christian just because they don't do everything that is written in the bible.
I think the most important thing about a belief is to believe in it itself, not to follow some codex. But maybe we just disagree on that part.

 

Why do you think only things that cannot be changed deserve protection? Religion is an opinion just like political orientation and in my view political views and intrinsic personal properties such as sexual orientation and race should enjoy equal protection.

I don't believe in any gods and I don't honestly think it is a choice whether I believe in god or not.

 

Most of us don't care what straight people think of us, we care that we have equal rights and protections under the law.

It's the same as any other minority, like black people. I know a lot of them who will ignore or laugh off a rude remark, but it doesn't mean that it's okay to kill black people, to take away work and school from them, to illegalize interracial marriages (which where illegal in the past btw).

I also just find it hypocritical in some ways. Straight people are "allowed" to hate gay people, to say they don't support gay people, but if a gay person said they hated straight people or that they were against straight culture, we all know there would be complaints and whining about how 'wrong' those beliefs are. That's what privilege is- thinking you can stomp on someone and take everything for yourself without consequence or justice.

As far as this quote goes:
"But as far as Christians ever changing their minds and accepting homosexuality as something that is not a sin, they can't, won't, should not be asked to."

I find this extremely ironic and hypocritical coming from someone who just said that sexuality is a choice that can change. So It's wrong for me to be an exclusive lesbian that never wants to love a man (regardless of personality), but "okay" for a Christian to stay within their old beliefs and never question or change them? Their beliefs are an even bigger choice than my sexuality is.

That being said, I have no interest in changing anyone's beliefs. However, this quote is simply wrong. Many Christians today no longer believe homosexuality is a sin because they've grown up and looked at different sides. Most of these Christians are friends and family who have my back no matter what.

 

I think you should definitely read up on what has happened to LGBT+ people for all of human history and then rethink whether LGBT+ people are "just as guilty of treating Christians poorly as Christians are of treating gay people poorly." LGBT+ people have been shunned, disowned, "corrected", and killed for all of human history. That is not a true statement. And I don't think misquoting the bible should be considered bigotry. Though the specific examples may not be true the general idea is still true. Christians don't follow the bible exactly. That would throw the world back into the 1st century. Watching some gay movies wouldn't hurt either. Like The Imitation Game. Promptly after saving millions of lives and possibly all of western culture, they found out he was gay, put him on DES and he killed himself 2 years later.

 

Agreed. Certainly LGBT people have as much capacity to be closed-minded or intolerant as any other group people, be they straight people, Christians, or what have you. However, I don't see any valid comparison between LGBT and Christians as far as who has caused the other the most pain and suffering. Across the country, LGBT teens are shunned and disowned by Christian families, bullied by their fellow Christians students, and ignored by Christian churches. This is not an excuse for LGBT people to return the intolerance, but to act like they are even approaching equal is ludicrous.

Secondly, yes, if someone is claiming that sexuality can be changed, then why cannot also religious beliefs change? I've already been exposed recently to a number of self-identified gay Christians who do not believe homosexuality is a sin, and I'm sure there are other non-gay Christians who have changed their mind about it as well. Demanding that someone change their beliefs is never a good idea, but to say that Christians can't change their beliefs about homosexuality is incorrect; they can and they do.