Homophobia...?

the bible also says to save people from hell and many have interpreted that to mean homosexuality is sin and to be saved from hell they must not be gay. many bypass that completely and just choose to rag on the sinners. when someone chooses to hurt others that do not hurt them, when they are old enough to know better, is where the line for ignoring or defending them gets erased. i understand playing devils advocate can be fun but if you will not understand or choose to ignore the difference between discouraging a person out to harm and encouraging a person out to harm then this will go nowhere.

many cultures partake in incredibly harmful acts against their own, indecent to human dignity, that many wish to stop. would we call those trying to stop it intolerant of the culture? is there any truth in that thought? does wanting to stop it become wrong if yes, they do not tolerate these acts even though the culture believes they are right? the culture believes in what they are doing. to flesh this out in your mind think child sacrifice or genital mutilation, or just stick with homosexualiy if that is too "apples and oranges" to comprehend. is intolerance the worst evil? is the intolerance of the culture to stop their acts worse than those wanting to stop its intolerance to allow it to continue?

---------- Post added 30th Jan 2016 at 03:21 PM ----------

not trying to patronize. this can just be an exhausting conversation to have when it seems the other side has no investment in reaching a conclusion in playing devils advocate, no monkey in either race, just seeing how far it can go.

 

You see, you claim to be playing devil's advocate, yet you keep refusing to acknowledge that this argument is bullshit. The word homophobia when used today does not refer to its literal Latin "fear of ----", it refers to discrimination on the basis of one's homosexuality. As such the people you are talking about are homophobes. Their actions are harmful to people.


And how the hell can you speak for a whole community of people? We're individuals all. I for one have absolutely no tolerance for people that commit harm against people that are committing no harm whatsoever toward them.

 

They are labeled as homophobic by OUTSIDE minds, regardless of how THEY feel inside, because by every bullet point on the list it is.The person shouting the N word and complaining about welfare queens and immigrants deciding they cant be racist because they have a black friend and jamaican great grandma can still be racist no matter what they decide about themselves, no matter how rational it seems to them. This isnt some teenage "hm makes you think????" conundrum or a south park "maybe both sides are wrong and complete apathy is the answer!!!" episode. there is nothing to play obtuse about.

 

*Throws hands up*

You are using absolutely no logic in refusing to acknowledge the arguments made against you (oh, I'm sorry, not you, the devil you're advocating for). You can believe whatever the hell you want. Reality will go on without you.

Dear Odin, this is why I usually leave trolls alone. Ignore list. I'm out.

 

This is a heated issue because it hits close to home for most people here, many have families who choose their religion over them and to see their points dismissed will get frustrating. If you want a truly neutral platform to try this on there are actual debate and discussion forums, but they will not take kindly to any sort of obtuse behaviour just fyi.

---------- Post added 30th Jan 2016 at 03:41 PM ----------

Also any good debate forum will not have emotions removed, dismissed, or belittled from an issue that literally stems from emotions. You cant brute force logic to an issue that steams from emotions.

 

Hm. Well because you seem to be ignoring anything interesting ot challenging and refusing to really go in depth with anything beyond "thats not the same" or "then explain this" then ignore or dismiss when people do. You dont seem invested in this until someone calls Christians bigots. It doesnt READ as a devils advocate deal. It reads as someone with no investment in this. Doesnt make for anything too engaging honestly. Just kind of talking to a word salad generator. No offense intended by anything I would just strongly advise you try this at a different forum, one actually geared towards holding debates, and also maybe lurk and read them awhile. namaste

 

Exactly! If you look at the bible, there is actually barely anything in there about homosexuality. It's not in the ten commandments (though lying is) and it's mostly mentioned exclusively in the old testament. Actually, right under the paragraph in Leviticus that discusses same-sex relations, is a paragraph about how we're not supposed to eat pigs, and I don't see any Christians saying that because of their religious beliefs no one else should eat hot dogs. Many Christians who are against homosexuality, are only using their religion as an excuse to discriminate against a minority group of people. There are also many Christians who are not homophobic, but the media portrays them as being against homosexuality because of the extremists who are.
The reason why homophobia, is the perfect term to describe people who discriminate against the LGBT community is because most of them are acting out of a subconscious or unconscious fear. People fear what they don't understand. Historically, minority groups are discriminated against because of this.
Love is one of the most important and fulfilling things a human being can experience. When politicians brush away LGBT rights, they create shame. Shame for something completely natural and which every human deserves to be able to freely experience. When you say that people of the same-sex should not be allowed to get married, you are saying that your religious beliefs are more important than their human rights. Instead of just expressing your religious beliefs you're using them to infringe on the rights of others.
People who are LGBT activists, are just like activists who have fought for other minority group's rights because we are fighting for a group of people who has been repeatedly harmed and repressed and forced to feel ashamed of who they are.
Everyone deserves to have equal rights, we're all human.
ride:

 

The big difference here is that anti gay views are inherently harmful. The existence of homosexuality is not hurting anyone. The Quran explicitly states that you are supposed to murder people who do not practice Islam. By your logic, would it not be intolerant to criticize those who kill others bcause the Quran tells them to?

 

Hm...this is hard.

Well, I am a lesbian. Me having romantic/sexual interactions with guys would not be genuine, therefore I would end up breaking their heart or lying the rest of my life. I do not wish to remain celibate and single my whole life. I want to be happy- which to me- means growing up, having a wife, and kids. It would make me happy, and it doesn't hurt anybody, because I am not forcing people into my lifestyle.

I think homophobia, and not liking the idea of LGBT are different things.

I feel homophobia is when people feel like restricting our lifestyle for theirs. "My (God/values) says gay people are wrong so YOU can't do it, even if it doesn't hurt someone"

But not agreeing or liking the idea is okay-
"I don't like the idea of LGBT people because I think it is (a sin/wrong)but I think they should have a choice on how they live and I'll tolerate it.

 

Just ignore the rude comments. *sending good vibes *

 

Seriously, to the people that are offended, don't say anything. Keep it to yourself.

 

I'll point out that around about here you left out the other point that was raised around religion (I believe Jews were mentioned in the post you were replying to). Being of the Jewish faith (or any religious faith) is a 'lifestyle' and is totally a matter of choice. Anyone of any religion can choose not to practice that religion.

The same logic that says someone 'rationally' objects to homosexuality can be applied to someone who 'rationally' objects to people of other faiths practicing their religion and seeks to either force them to convert to something else, or to persecute them using the power of the state, or to even kill them. This is not something our current civilization (the Western industrialized part of it anyway) generally engages in and approves of for a variety of reasons, including the need to get a large and diverse population all living reasonably peacefully together.

Coming at this from another direction, the statement that this belief is 'rational' is highly questionable at best because:

a) It is not at all clear how someone practicing a 'lifestyle' (to use your term) is in any way materially hurting the person who 'rationally' objects to it (we shall assume for sake of simplicity that the 'lifestyles' in question do not include actively engaging in violence against the 'rational' person or others). To put it another way - someone being LGBT neither takes money from their pocket nor food from their mouths - so why should the 'rational' person care?

b) The principle that 'your freedom to swing your fist stops at my face' is generally accepted in one form or another in most of what might be termed 'liberal Western democracies'. Put another way, people are (in principle) free to live how they choose as long as doing so does not materially and negatively impact those around them. Knowing that someone is living in some fashion that a person doesn't agree with may cause some degree of emotional distress, but that is not generally considered an acceptable reason for taking action (at either the personal or governmental level) against the practitioner of said lifestyle.

Note that this principle cuts in all directions. The person who objects to LGBT on religious grounds presumably expects people of other faiths to accept the existence and practice of their religion and way of living and would be quite upset if they suddenly found themselves being denied employment, housing, goods and services, or even medical care because they were of a particular brand of religion.

A person who believes that they should be accorded the societal right to live as they wish on the principle that they are not hurting anyone while simultaneously believing that other people who are basically wanting the same thing (and are not hurting anyone) should be denied that right because they are living in a manner that the first person does not approve of is both hypocritical and irrational. Hence homophobes are engaging in irrational behavior.

Todd

 

Words are words. Sometimes people read too much into which ones we choose.

There are people out there who dont like gays, and that is their choice. Doesnt make em bad... They have a right to decide for themselves which kinda folks they wanna associate with. We all have certain types of people we dislike more than others, whether we admit it or not. Simple as that. What we call it is irrelevant.

If we're gonna argue semantics though, fine. Homophobia is an inaccuratw term. Phobia means fear, but no one is "afraid" of gays. If anything they see gays as weak and unfit for acceptance. That is not the same as fear.

 

What are you trying to say here? This doesn't make sense and doesn't align with the point you're making either.

I used Christianity not only because you brought it up and used the word multiple times in your first post and related your own first hand experiences to it, but also because it is relatable for people in the United States, which you are as well as many readers. I also brought in other religions but you dismissed the points on those entirely as "not the same". Figure out what your point is because steering away from it doesn't matter when the points are still valid and doubly so when it is what YOU used to open. I used race as well and brought up Judaism because it can be a religion, ethnicity, and culture but again that was dismissed by you as not the same. Also not sure why using it would been seen as negative because it is a stem of this issue but ok.

When I say debate I don't mean argument - I did not use the word argument for a reason. Debates are not inherently bad or ~scary~. The point was to get viewpoints and perspectives from both sides, ideally to reach a conclusion but I entered this intending to share perspective and help you understand.

Your personal beliefs didn't matter because you wanted to play devil's advocate. That's fine. But maybe next time don't ignore the entire paragraphs people type to try to help you understand. It isn't hard to engage with someone when your intention is genuine intent to learn and understand.

Actually you have been dismissing and it was a bit frustrating.

Don't cry bullied victim when you've been deliberately obtuse and ignoring things that don't suit the point you're trying to make or the words you want to hear, whether you have been upfront about that or not. Next time please just be upfront and say if there is something in particular you want to hear or a point you specifically want to address.