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Opening my eyes on gun control

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by DreamerBoy17, Dec 2, 2015.

  1. DMark69

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    Plattyrex, the 2nd amendment does mention a 2nd amendment. You have to look at the meaning of those words in 1787 when they were written. Well regulated meant well trained, and you cannot train without access to the weapons. As for who is the militia US Code 10 TODAY states that the militia is every able bodied male citizen between 17 and 45. So you are part of the militia.

    AwesomGaytheist, we will obviously never agree on the 2nd amendment, and that is OK. I do want to point out your last paragraph though "School shootings and mass killings are perfectly fine as long as I can purchase military style weapons for my own hoard without making sure I'm not a terrorist first. Because Second Amendment. Black helicopters! New World Order! Ajenda 21! Obama! Overthrow the government!"
    To me and to most people I know, calling names, putting down or generally making fun of the person/ group you are arguing with says I give up, I have nothing more intelligent to say, and I am invalidating my entire argument. We don't need that kind of thing here, you are being overly dismissive. For the record the only part of that entire statement that I said was part of the reason for the 2nd amendment is for the people to be able to change their government if the need arose. I never advocated doing that.

    As for the mental health issue, in ALL 50 states a gun dealer must fill out ATF Form 4473 for any firearm transfer. Filling out that form requires calling the FBI instant background check number and getting an approval for the sale. That includes LA, TX, and even here in WY. If mental health reasons were in the database, most of these shooters would not have been able to obtain their firearms. The one case I know of it would not have helped is Sandy Hook since those weapons were stolen from his parents, who would have passed the background check.

    As I said before we will never agree on this issue, and that is OK, I will continue to vote the way I believe, you continue to vote the way you believe.
     
  2. Plattyrex

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    Oh dear god, a calm and intelligent political statement. Never thought I'd see the day, especially on the internet.
     
  3. AwesomGaytheist

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    All the respect in the world back at you, but I don't need to be lectured. What I'm getting at by the last sentence of my point is paraphrasing the editorials and newspaper comments I read every day in my area, a conservative gun country type town. In Washington, these types of pro-gun groups put a measure on the ballot that would prohibit the state from conducting any type of background checks on gun sales. That is a totally irrational belief to have, and many gun owners would agree with me on that point. But when I read in the paper every day about people in my own area and across the country who offer nothing but conspiracy theories and can't come up with one good argument to support their position that we should have no restrictions whatsoever on gun sales or gun ownership.
     
  4. Psaurus918

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    A well regulated and trained militia... Aka the military.

    What people forget is before we had the military we had to rely on any able bodied citizen to defend our country. We've developed since then and have one of the best well trained and regulated militias, our military.

    There is absolutely no reason for people to have guns nowadays outside of home defense and hunting.
     
  5. DMark69

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    Per US Code 10 today, not 200 years ago. The Militia is every able bodied male citizen between 17 and 45. We do in fact have the militia today, and it is NOT the standing army, or the National Guard.
     
  6. Psaurus918

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    Do we? Where do they meet and train?
     
  7. DMark69

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    AwesomGaytheist, the people who spout that stuff discredit themselves too. I used to live in your area (Sterling Heights MI), and my brothers still live in that area, so I know people like you are talking about. Specifically the ones that frequent that gun range in Decker MI.

    My intent was not to lecture so much as to help with your arguments. Most people when they feel they are being put down, or talked down to in a discussion put up a wall and stop listening. It would be useful to think about that in future discussions. By all means state facts, or even feelings about the issue at hand, but things that can be seen as personal attacks turn people off.


    I also do support expanding the FBI Instant background check program, a program that is required for dealership gun sales in all 50 states, to include mental health issues in addition to the criminal background it currently has. Even here in Wyoming, I have to fill out the ATF paperwork and go through the FBI instant background check to purchase a gun from a dealer.
     
  8. DMark69

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    AwesomGaytheist, the people who spout that stuff discredit themselves too. I used to live in your area (Sterling Heights MI), and my brothers still live in that area, so I know people like you are talking about. Specifically the ones that frequent that gun range in Decker MI.

    My intent was not to lecture so much as to help with your arguments. Most people when they feel they are being put down, or talked down to in a discussion put up a wall and stop listening. It would be useful to think about that in future discussions. By all means state facts, or even feelings about the issue at hand, but things that can be seen as personal attacks turn people off.


    I also do support expanding the FBI Instant background check program, a program that is required for dealership gun sales in all 50 states, to include mental health issues in addition to the criminal background it currently has. Even here in Wyoming, I have to fill out the ATF paperwork and go through the FBI instant background check to purchase a gun from a dealer.

    ---------- Post added 3rd Dec 2015 at 05:07 PM ----------

    Psaurus918, as your profile states you are a male living in NY state. You are therefore part of the militia. You are not however part of the "Organized Militia" so you train on your own. See US Code below.

    311. Militia: composition and classes
    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
    (b) The classes of the militia are—
    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
     
  9. dano218

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    I am going to get far into this debate because it goes always nowhere but people from liberal to conservative and in the middle will not give up their guns because of the the right to privacy and to do what you want in your in own personal life. Sure reasonable gun control should be able to pass but not unless democrats in red states or republicans in red states want to get defeated in a primary or general election. Political pressure is above any kind of common sense gun laws in this country.

    What should be reasonable is a yearly mental health evaluation for all gun owners seriously and a public gun registry for all gun owners. No one with a violent felony or mental health issues should own a gun and there needs to be stricter guidelines for that. And these gun crimes are another reason to close our borders at least for a few years to anyone. We can provide humanitarian aide in other ways.
     
  10. DMark69

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    Violent felonies are already in the background check. I WILL NOT support a gun registry. That is the first step toward confiscation. I will also not support yearly evaluations. If diagnosed you must get rid of your guns, just as you must now if you commit a felony. That is as far as I will go.
     
  11. dano218

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    Believe me I am not into taking law abiding citizens guns away either but something needs to be done. If someone is a law abiding citizen with nothing to hide a registry should not be a problem with anyone and how can evaluations be worse than actually taking away your guts. If your a good citizen and mentally stable you should be fine.
     
  12. Argentwing

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    I'm trying to stay out of this one for the most part but historically speaking, DMark is correct. It smacks of the "slippery slope" fallacy to oppose registration because it sounds so mild and common-sense, though it bears mention that most other countries who have tried it have gone from there to confiscation and then genocide.

    Without the possible progression though, let's use Sandy Hook as an example. With a registry in place, they'd be able to track the serials back to who bought and owned the weapons. You'd locate the people who had nothing at all to do with it.

    France for both Charlie Hebdo and the massive attacks recently. A registry (or all their other existing laws) did absolutely jack for those people and in my opinion, played into the terrorists' hands in sealing their fate.

    The more attacks I see in America specifically, the more I'm convinced that guns have little to do with our appalling violence. Something in our society is dreadfully wrong so that people feel the need to lay waste to random others. I don't know what it is but gun control is not the way to go about fixing it.
     
    #32 Argentwing, Dec 3, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
  13. Skaros

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    Gun control won't work with the second amendment in place. Repealing the 2nd amendment would be a disaster. Honestly, I think the US is fucked when it comes to gun violence. Unless someone has a good idea on how to solve the issue, I honestly don't think gun control will work without thorough regulation and reform (to our constitution).
     
  14. dano218

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    I get what your saying and i am not trying to drag on a discussion but what does anyone suggest we do to end gun violence without banning guns all together. This is why our political l system is broken nobody wants to find common ground on any issue everybody wants it their way. I do think also there are other ways to approach gun violence by looking at mental health problems, poverty, drug abuse and so to get a lot of violence to stop.

    I mean some anti gun activists want it all now and if saying a person who is not harming anyone or their property should be left alone free from government intrusion is not reasonable enough than i cannot argue anymore.

    I don't believe in doing things out of fear or worrying about the "what ifs". Like conservatives worrying about every muslim being a terrorist or liberals worried about every gun owner going crazy on people.

    ---------- Post added 3rd Dec 2015 at 07:47 PM ----------

    I think most Americans would at least support reasonable gun regulations but even than repealing the second amendment would bring out a rebellion and make things so much worse. We can do research on where all the sources of violence comes from but honestly the only way to end most gun violence would be to ban all guns something i don't really want to do either.
     
    #34 dano218, Dec 3, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
  15. Psaurus918

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    Yearly mental health evaluations is a MUST. Every time a gun control debate comes up someone mentions mental health but what people don't realize is a lot of mental health conditions are hard to diagnose and even if you pass your mental health can change. You can be fine and dandy then 5 years later find out your spouse is cheating on you and snap.
     
  16. AlamoCity

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    I'm also pretty sure that also refers to the draftable population. That is why women are not required to register for the Selective Service and are not considered part of the militia. Maybe women, who gun advocates say are a beneficiary of possessing weapons, because they can prevent their own rape, should not be allowed to carry firearms because they are not part of the "militia." And, "militia," and "well regulated militia" may or may not be the same thing, if we're splitting hairs.

    That said, I do believe Americans have a right to possess firearms. How that right is regulated (all rights have limitatitions: crowded theater yelling "fire"). As they say, " guns don't kill people, people kill people." That is why we need to regulate people owning guns.

    Pseudoephedrine is an excellent drug to decongest yourself when you have a cold or allergies. Guns are excellent tools for hunting and self-defense. Pseudoephedrine is also is a precursor in the production of methamphetamine. Guns serve as tools for violent crimes and mass murders. Republicans had no trouble seriously controlling an over-the-counter efficacious and beneficial drug to curtail drug use and drug crimes. Many Republicans consider any sensible gun regulations to be anathema.
     
  17. I've taken a more cultural stance on gun control. I believe that as long as the culture creates a demand for a gun, there won't be a point in making it harder to obtain.

    I don't really think background checks aren't useful at all because you could be a goody-two-shoes by the time to get the background check and once you get cleared, you could use it for malicious intent.

    Or the opposite scenario, you've gotten out of prison for a felony and trying to give back to society and reform yourself, but you're just entering the workforce, so you're more likely to live in a crime-ridden neighborhood due to low property values. You'd want something to protect yourself because the police take time to come, so you want a gun, but the felony on your record inhibits you from getting one.

    To sum it all up, gun wouldn't exactly work too well in the U.S, considering our live and let live attitude in most parts of the U.S. A huge social effort needs to be made in order for gun control to make way and work better, like Canada and Australia.
     
  18. DMark69

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    While mass shootings appears to be increasing, gun deaths over all are declining, in fact according to Pew Research, gun homicides peaked in 1993, and have dropped 49% since then.