An epiphany for dysphoria

Actually, no. A wolf is always labeled as wild even when raised by humans.
A dog raised by humans properly will seldom turn on its handler. But there are more cases than I care to look up where a person treated a wolf just like a dog and ended up dead because they thought it 'domesticated'.
The same thing happens with people who try to treat lions, tigers, and other big animals as house cats. Eventually they do something that triggers that creature into seeing you as prey. It is in their genetic coding, a hard wired part of what they are. They are hunters and anything that seems weaker could be viewed as prey.


But let's get back to gender.

You are talking about a person who dresses like a girl, thinks like one, talks like one, acts like one but identifies as a boy. This is has happen before, I've read blogs of people like that, and they all transition so that everyone else could see the man they knew themselves to be. Be they gay, straight, bi, pan they are still a man just femininely so. Gender expression and gender identy are two separate thing though they do tend to intertwine.
Identity is a very personal things that is unquie to each person's experiences in life. Gender expression is widely dictated by social norms.
Once upon a time in the days when the queen of England actually had power, men use to wear high heels to court. Men started the fashion trend. In that day's form of feminist movement women started to wear them as well. As the movement caught on men stopped wearing them in an attempt to not be seen as girly. These days it is now only deemed social acceptable for women to wear them and men to no do so.
Gender expression and social norms change with the times, while a persons identity can only change with the person as they experience life.

 

Linus, I look like a boy, act like a boy, dress like a boy and have male private parts... I am still a girl and it is not because I identify as a girl. (I've only recently started identifying fully as a girl) I am a girl because I have the inner life of a girl and the innate instincts of a girl. When I speak to a girl, it just feels familiar to me as if they are reflections of me and I see patterns in their behavior that I understand, on the other hand, boys are distant and confusing to me. I don't feel like a boy and I have never felt like one.

This discussion made me think of something that happened a few months ago. I have a very strong relationship with my brother and he originally didn't accept that I could be trans. One day, we went out to a market and talked for a long time, on our way home, he jokingly said something that was extremely hurtful and that no guy would ever say to a girl, I was confused and hurt and tried to argue that he was wrong and he tried to explain himself unintentionally saying other hurtful things. Consequently, I slowly broke down and started crying. My brother was completely surprised and confused and immediately started to apologize. He obviously didn't want to hurt me and my reaction was completely unexpected. At this point something changed in his perception and when we reached home he said that I managed to convince him that I am a girl.

The key here is expectations, my brother instinctively knew how men react to certain statements in certain situations and considering how familiar he is with me, predicted that I would behave in a certain way. I was supposed to laugh about it and shrug it off. However, I am actually a girl and as such my inner world and life is completely different than what he believed. So when I reacted in a way that showed how hurt I was, he realized his mistake and put one plus one together and saw me for who I was. Since then he has behaved in a much more sensitive and understanding way and has clearly shown that he really does accept me for who I am.

 

That and people expect girls to cry and show emotions easier while guys are suppose to shrug it off and pretend to not care when really they do.

 

Linus I am sorry that we are not communicating well I think there definitely are misundersta ndings on both sides.

I am glad you have found something that helps ease your dysphoria I hope your ideas reach the right people. It does not seem that I am one of them. Which is cool. It means that each of us can share our perspective and help more people overall

---------- Post added 19th Oct 2015 at 01:04 AM ----------

If it helps, I would definitely not call that person you described a woman. I would be physically attracted to him, since his body appears female. I do not think I should pretend I am not attracted, and it does not make me less of a lesbian. However, I would not pursue a relationship; he is a man and deserves a relationship with someone that is attracted to him as a man. I actually have a friend this describes and he is amazingly cool. He is gay and his boyfriend is a sweetheart.

So I hope that helps you understand me a little better, and if you have not yet run out of patience I would love to listen to what you were trying to say.

 

Hahaha, I think that this, like any social issue, is probably in the year of the beholder. We exist in society and can therefore not create any sensible experiment to make sense of any of this. Gender is constructed on many things that don't always apply. Even our own interpretation, such as sexual orientation, rarely depends on WHO someone else IS but rather what we perceive them to be. Any one of us may be entirely correct, but how can we prove it Or even make reasonable assuming about our own perceptions?

I'm just happy you came to this conclusion and that it makes absolute sense to you. Personally philosophy is STILL philosophy. To me any thought out philosophy is a great one. ♡

 

What if we don't really feel that connection with either girls or boys? What if we used to feel the one that alligned with our biological sex, but since we've grown, it's gotten to be more and more of a turn off?

 

Ok, look at colors for example, if a person sees blue, their personal experience of seeing it is subjective, yet they still see it as blue because it creates certain wave lengths that correspond with the color blue. Some people are blind to color and will not see the color blue, only shades of grey and won't recognize it, others are simply blind so have no concept of color. Gender works in the same way, every person experiences gender subjectively, however, people who are binary recognize that they are male or female because they have inner workings that correspond with being male or female. Someone who is cisfemale, will not think that they are male, they might want to be male, might want to know how it feels like to be male but they are still female and deep down they know it. In the case of people who are binary trans, we know that we are not the gender that our body projects to others and it confuses us and makes us feel painfully uncomfortable as a result.

Someone who is non binary is the same as someone who is color blind or mostly color blind. They might recognize colors by comparing shades of grey or have a limited ability to see colors, for them color is something insubstantial and exists as a concept not as something innate, they can't even recognize that they are color blind and just assume that people see colors in the same way as they do. Gender works in the same way, someone non binary can't really know what it feels like to have an innate gender. All that some can do is recognize it in themselves and others through gender expression. Others have a limited ability to do so and will typically identify with the gender that they feel a stronger connection to.

On the other hand, some people identify as agender because they feel blind to gender and can't even understand the concept of what it means to be female or male. It's all just empty words. There are different levels of blindness and in a similar manner some agender people aren't completely blind to gender but have a much more limited ability to understand what gender means.

Linus, you are non binary and as such you are color blind. You simply can't see what we see and as such it is hard for you to accept that there is more to gender than it simply being a social construct.

Tai: I hope what I wrote will help you understand yourself better. I know how much you've struggled with finding an answer and you deserve some peace of mind. Unfortunately, only you can really say who you are deep inside or figure out that you are color or gender blind and as such might never be able to do so. (*hug*)

 

There is a lot of wisdom in that. I think the reason this matters so much to people, why you are getting so many strong replies, to something you are correct about being very subjective, is because there are two groups of people that have some very real and not at all subjective problems.

There are those of us that have been in the closet about who we are, have tried very hard to change who we are, and who went through a lot of pain when we accepted what we could not change about ourselves and came out of the closet. There are also a lot of us that have been crammed into gender roles we don't fit in. We see a lot of arbitrary distinctions that do no one any good at all, and do us a lot of harm. And of course, many people fall into both groups (me included) and neither group.

So the thing is, those of us that struggle and come out with a painful truth, need some options that give us some dignity and ability to live life without misery. For some of us, me included, that includes having medical options. I don't think these options should ever be forced on anyone, and I am firmly against them being used to legitimize who we are - the whole "my hormones make me a real (wo)man" idea, implying that not taking them means you are a "fake (wo)man" somehow - but I absolutely believe they should be options because I have directly experienced how crippling gender dysphoria can really be. In order to have access to these medical options, though, society has taken into account that medical options that help me, can hurt others, and has decided to put a process into place in the hopes of making it so that people like me, who can benefit from medicine, are the only people taking my medicine. In order to get past that filter - and other filters that have nothing to do with medicine, such as getting a job - I have to conform to some gender stereotypes. To confuse things even further, conforming or not conforming to something I understand to be male or female does have a direct psychological effect on me. It's a very real effect. Even with my HRT, it affects my dysphoria.

In short, I absolutely need room to be a woman, whatever woman means to me, in order to live my life.

But I also recognize, as a woman interested in engineering and business - two incredibly masculinized fields - that those same gender stereotypes that I have to conform to, pardon my bad English, suck ass. And are very stupid, subjective, arbitrary. No matter whether they are nature or nurture - and a hell of a lot of them really are nurture, as you realized way back at the beginning of this thread - they get in the way, and are things we can absolutely overcome. Plenty of women lift weights and work construction jobs, plenty of men are terrific at ballet and nursing. Stereotypes that say that's not the way things should be are completely stupid, and should be overcome.

So really, if you think about it, both groups have the same problem. They don't have to be at odds. And I think that's what you were getting at at the start of all this? The problem is that we have to be square pegs in round holes. If we could just give everyone what they needed to punch their own holes that fit them, there wouldn't be a problem, right? And I agree with you completely if that's what you're saying.

But we don't have to say that there isn't any reality to gender, for that to happen. There is. I struggled with this reality for years and years while closeted. As I have been known to say, I would have a problem even if I lived on a desert island. My dysphoria is lessened when other people aren't around, but it's still there. My medicine did more to alleviating my dysphoria, than any of the social half-measures and hearing people calling me "he" half the time and wondering forever if they aren't just being polite when I hear "ma'am" from a perfect stranger.

What I'm saying is, that your solution, would go a very very long way toward helping people like me. There may be other people that can't or won't take my medicine, or who have tried it and did not get the same results I got. Those people may have their problem completely solved with your solution. It's a good solution, and I think it needs to happen honestly. I am 100% for tearing down our stupid ideas about sex and gender wherever and whenever they get in the way.

So I'm not really arguing with you here. I'm just hoping after reading this, you walk away with a clearer understanding of what other people are hearing. You aren't saying this, and I know it's not what you mean. But what other people are hearing is "your problem isn't real, it's all in your head". And after experiencing some of the things we have experienced our whole lives, hearing that from people that are supposed to be on our side really hurts. I'm not saying you're wrong - after all that's not what you are saying to begin with. But when we hurt like that, we are going to try to clear up the misunderstanding.

So that's why you have been getting the replies you have been getting. We just want to understand each other.

 

I don't think anyone said gender is based off stereotypes. Gender is pretty much how you feel and some times the best way to describe how you feel is with by using a stereotype as an example.

And Yeali, I don't think most cis females want to be male. Curious as to what it's like, but not want to be.
Because if cis females do want to be male then maybe I am just a confused girl after all.

---------- Post added 26th Oct 2015 at 11:00 AM ----------

Honestly, I am still trying to understand how you feel that people are attacking you because of stereotypes?

I think most people in this forum understand how bullshit stereotypes are. Some people are stereotypically male and others female. Some men cry when they need to, and some women like fixing up cars are working with a blow torch. For some people stereotypes are important, for others they don't mean anything.

You can say stereotypes are social constructs, and you be 100% right. But even if knowing that helps you with your dysphoria, it doesn't for others.
Like for me, I don't knownif what I experience is dupshoria but when I am at my lowest it is because I think about is I die they might put She on my tombstone instead of He. I think about how I might not be able to be some man's husband, or how I might not be a father (though I actually don't want kids so that is a pointless thing to worry bout). I also get low when I realize that I could go to the gym and lose weight and build muscle, my body will not develop the way I want it to on its own. My dysphoria, if that is what it is, has nothing to do with stereotypes, because stereotypically I am rather feminine. I can get a gallon of ice cream when upset, I suffer from hormonal mood swings, I cry when mad or sad, I love romance movies like Pride and Prejudice, I hang out with almost nothing but females and do find myself more comfortable with them than males. Stereotypes are used for society to teach us how they think men and women should act, but in fact there isn't much of a difference between any of the genders.

The reason why you are getting so many answers is because everyone experiences gender in their own unique ways. No one is saying you are wrong, and no one else is wrong in their answers, because in the end we are all right. Because it is how each of us experience out genders in our life.

 

Linus, the last thing that I want to do is argue with you or invalidate you. What I am, on the other hand trying to do is to help others understand a bit better what we go through and why gender is important for us. Personally, I am glad that you started the thread and I learned a lot from it. Thank you for that.

Back to the discussion, I agree with Jess about nearly everything she said. The one thing I disagree about is the idea that any people who can't take medication who are trans will be cured by abolishing gender expression. It's simply not true as a person needs to be perceived by others and themselves as female or male for the gender dysphoria to lift and as hard as it is to accept, gender expression does serve an important role in establishing your identity as female or male. Before I recognized that I was trans, the only times I felt alive and more comfortable were when I acted in a way that I perceived to be more feminine. It didn't matter that I saw myself as male, it didn't matter that I didn't believe in gender stereotypes and fought against them when they were brought up, nothing really mattered. I still felt better acting in ways that I perceived to be feminine. Despite all of my very strong philosophical objections to categorizations, I still had a very clear image of what it means to be male and female. We all clearly do, no matter how open minded we are and how much we might say that we don't. (Outside of many people who are agender.)

The simple truth is that beyond lifting the gender dysphoria that I so clearly suffer from, transitioning makes absolutely zero sense for me. I didn't identify as female until I started transitioning, I didn't feel any real need to wear women's clothing and I planned to work in a field that is gender neutral, I don't have any distinctively female mannerism and I have never been afraid to show emotions, I cried all the time when I was younger. Looking back, I've lived for years showing absolutely no masculine qualities and very few feminine qualities that aren't distinctively feminine and no one batted an eye... When I came out as trans, the first thing everyone told me is that if I want to act in a more feminine manner, nothing is stopping me from doing so and I knew that they were right. Yet, despite all of this, I am choosing to go through a horrible process of transitioning, have life threatening operations, take hormones for the rest of my life that have quite a few downsides, have my hair removed in an expensive and painful process, while trying to get used to acting in ways that I am not used to acting so that others won't treat me in a hurtful and prejudicial way, by doing this, I also need to hurt and even traumatize my family, people who I would sacrifice my life for willingly and that I care about more than I care about myself. Once I start presenting as a woman, I will no longer be able to walk outside without feeling judged or fearing that others will hurt me and I will have to deal with the headache which is having breasts and putting on makeup. To add to the irony of the situation, I will be turning from straight to gay in the eyes of society, which comes with its own set of problems as many people here can attest to. Oh, I am also most likely giving up on ever having children of my own, one of the most meaningful experiences a person can go through and something that I dearly want. Hell, I even look decent enough as a man, something that is unlikely to be true as a woman. It doesn't help that I have a long and ugly looking scar on my leg. To make matters worse I am transitioning at the age of 34, taking away some of the advantages transitioning at a young age brings with it such as living the best years of your life as who you were meant to be. Instead, my twenties were nothing but pain and emptiness...

Why would I put myself through so much to make my life clearly worse than it already is? That's what my family ask themselves and they just can't understand... they are so afraid that I am making the biggest mistake of my life, that nothing will change for me and I will be making my life so much worse. Because of that they have fought me every step of the way since I came out as trans. They broke me quite a few times but everytime the terrible gender dysphoria that I felt as a result reminded me why I need to move forward despite everything that I am sacrificing to do so. Why I have no real choice, because I deep down know that the alternative to transitioning is death and I am willing to throw the dice and risk everything at a chance of happiness and a chance to truly feel alive and whole for the first time in my life... Think of how much conviction you would need to have to take such a leap of faith. How clear it must be for us that our bodies are simply wrong, that deep inside we are really women or men... if we have even the slightest doubt, we will stop ourselves from moving forward because this is not something that you choose to do voluntarily or because you are curious to know how it feels like to be female... that's why 98% of people who fully transition are happy that they chose to do so. You simply can't transition fully unless you are trans, you will hit a wall at some point and realize that you made the biggest mistake of your life and it happens the moment you start taking Estrogen or testosterone and feel worse instead of better, the moment you truly experience what it means to have gender dysphoria, the terror and emptiness that we feel so clearly that makes life so unbearable. At that moment of clarity, you understand how lucky you are to be alive and whole and you shout out to the world that you were wrong and never look back again...

 

Everyone is saying that they accept that though.

 

Thanks Yaeli. By your explanations, I'd be colorblind... I never really felt attached to an innate gender. Like Linus, I always saw it as the person's preferred gender expression, along with whatever they wanted to be or identify as. I have "wanted" to be a boy for a while now, but am I just one of those girls who wants to be a boy but isn't one? It's all so confusing. If I simply was a cis girl wanting to be a boy, I don't think I'd be going through this much uncertainty and frustration.

 

Hmm, there's a difference between expressions, roles, and gender identity. The way someone explained to me was that she had an "inner map" of how she saw herself in comparison with the world, and it's been similar for me.

Because, really, how many cis men seriously consider cutting off their parts, socializing as a woman, and going by a female name, pronouns, etc.? Some might say, "a very sick one," which is unfortunately how many transphobes see us.

Anyway, I've never seen myself as any sort of "girly girl", but more on the tomboyish or weird side, into goth, punk, and cosplaying. Personally, I don't think gender is ever going away, not as long as there are more than one of the sexes, since that inevitably leads to a creation of "specialization".

What's considered feminine or masculine, a man or a woman's area, varies by culture, time, and geography, but transgender people have always existed despite of that. I believe some people fit a gray area, and can be happy in either gender, or neither at all!, but many do lean heavily to one side, and that shouldn't be ignored.

That's probably what stops me from adopting the radical feminist idea of abolishing gender, since for the majority of people, it would have more harmful effects. Baby steps.

 

On one hand you are entirely and undeniably correct in what you are saying from a psychologist's standpoint. If a person's psychological gender related traits are completely different than their physical gender, they probably act in ways that are more typical of the opposite sex, they would think and feel emotions in ways like the opposite sex, dress in ways that might be reminiscent of the opposite sex, and generally just seem like members of the opposite sex in a lot of ways. When all of that is the case, the person is likely not really the gender that they are physically. They could be for all intents and purposes like the opposite sex, but have no desire to change their physical body. However, from a medical doctor's standpoint, the bodies of men and women are clearly different in ways other than just genitals (e.g. breasts, curves, muscles, facial features, etc.). From that standpoint, men and women are entirely different. The body is something that remains constant over the course of time, despite one's psyche. Basically, whether or not this is an "epiphany for dysphoria" is up to you. If you are dissatisfied with your physical body, your epiphany essentially wouldn't mean much at all. If your dysphoria is just mental/psychological in nature, then you are absolutely right and I'm glad you thought of it this way. I am not questioning my gender, I just thought all of this through reading your post, so sorry if I sounded off base to anyone who is living with the day to day struggle of having dysphoria. In this society, most people have historically defined gender simply on the bodily aspects. However, whether you choose to see body or psychology as more of the defining factor is entirely up to you.

 

i actually agree with all of this. i'm not sure why it's created that much controversy.

you said gender sterotypes are a bunch of crap. we can't use stereotypes to 'determine' our gender, and i agree. stereotypes and gender are completely separate.

"Everything you could possibly think of to define a women could also be used to define certain men." -- yes.

i also agree that's why it takes some trans people longer to realize than others. we're individuals before gender -- gender contributes to our identity and personality, it may even arguably anchor it. but a person is much more than their gender, and possibly any traits can be valid in either sex.

"so there's no need to define yourself based on gender roles and stereotypes." yep. gender transcends all of that, however it isn't of course non-existant, which you acknowledge. it's an ingrained part of us.

actually, thank you for making this post. and like you mentioned previously, everyone who experiences gender has different experiences. how a person knows they are cis or trans is going to be different. but you certainly can't base it off of outdated gender roles and stereotypes or acceptable 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits.