Raven Symone's Dumb Ass Clocked AGAIN

Yeah seriously this whole thing with Raven Symone is blown out of proportion. All Lives Matter.

 

Oh god, this is depressing.

 

Some of you people here are so incredibly two-faced it is ridiculous.

Imagine if we had seen an increase in hate crimes against the LGBT Community in the wake of the marriage equality ruling. We watch in horror as we witness our people being murdered, attacked, and brutalized. Then we watch as the police were largely ignoring it (AS THEY HAVE HISTORICALLY DONE IN THE PAST AND CONTINUE TO DO WITH TRANS* PEOPLE). Then we respond by creating #LGBTLivesMatter, and straight people started tweeting out #AllLivesMatter, virtually everyone here would have their panties so far twisted up their asses that no one would be able to walk in a straight line.

And I would argue that we would rightfully be pissed off at straight people doing that, because if straight people are saying #AllLivesMatter while we are trying to engage in consciousness raising over LGBT Issues and Hate Crimes, then they are actively ignoring and avoiding the very real problems we face.

Yet, for some magical reason, a reason that is so utterly foreign to me that I cannot even fathom, you cannot extend this same logical courtesy to another community trying to raise very real and serious issues facing them. What gets me the most is that I can forgive ignorance. Privilege can blind people to a lot of shit, and that is not the fault of those with privilege, that's just how it works. So, we educate, and we hope that through explaining the situation, that good and decent people will come around. However, that has not happened. You have been told that it is offensive, and it has been explained to you why it is offensive. Yet, you continue to stupidly carry on as you have even after it's been explained to you.

You people owe everyone an explanation. I'm a white guy who grew up in the south, and this is so common sense to me that no one needs to even explain it. If I can get it, you can get it. There is no real excuse. So, you have to explain to me why you all are continuing to engage in offensive actions, which are actively causing harm and offense to black LGBT members of our community ESPECIALLY those who are on EC and have to read your bullshit.

Seriously, it utterly boggles my mind. Why are you actively ignoring issues that face the African American Community? How would you feel if the African American Community decided to ignore the issues facing us? Are you really that stupidly antagonistic, that you are willing to engage in offensive actions KNOWING full well that it is not only hurting African American LGBT folks, but obviously antagonizing potential straight allies who happen to be black? Or do you just assume that straight people who happen to be African American should care about YOUR issues even as you don't give a shit about the issues that face them? Please tell me that you people are not that stupid, because I don't want to believe that you all are that stupid, but I'm finding it hard to draw any other conclusion.

 

I agree with you on the way you explained how racism works in policing. I think that the way you explained it is hands down the best way that I've ever heard it explained. Thank you for having, and sharing, that wonderful opinion.

 

This. I think most people on this forum can understand that the "Why not straight pride?" question is dumb, and this is pretty much the exact same thing.

 

Race is such a dangerous thing in this society. I completely 100% agree that racism has increased since the civil rights movement. But not just towards african americans. Now we live in a world where all races have equal social rights yet every race has some degree of hatred towards the others. We live in a world world where if one sick son of a bitch racist kills an african american it makes NATIONAL NEWS but if a racist black kills a white sometimes it won't even make local news. We live in a world where a white boy can walk into a church and kill a group of holy upstanding people just because of the color of their skin. We live in a world where the confederate flag can fly over state capitals but we also live in a world in which Apple will ban all HISTORICAL CIVIL WAR apps that feature the flag. Yes its apart of history, a history that nobody Should attempt to rewrite by banning the flag but it also shouldn't fly above state capitals as a constant reminder of the particularly painful part of history the flag comes from. We live in a world where an illegal alien can mug, rape, and kill and young white boy and disappear without a trace because because not even the government knows his name. (You probably haven't heard of that cause it wasn't in national media (I wonder why) but it happened in southern texas look it up if u dont believe me) and why do we live in a world of such universal hate? Because were all pawns in a political game. When the democrats have too much power people get lazy and the one third of the country gets on wellfare. When republicans have too much power the rich get hreedy and people slip deep into poverty. Its a sick world the only thing I can say I treat everyone as your equal treat all races that way, treat the homeless that way, treat addicts that way, treat criminals that way. Because were all just people we all just want to be loved so why is there still so much hate

 

There does seem to be a certain hypocrisy in the immediate response of "all lives matter" to "black lives matter". It seems to be this idea that we can't ever focus on one group's issues, as doing so is somehow a detriment to all other groups. Yet the very nature of this site is dedicated to one group's issues. Is calling attention to anti-LGBT discrimination or hate crimes devaluing any discrimination or hate crimes that occur against other groups? Every time a person speaks of a gay person being discriminated against, should they append it with "but straight people get discriminated against too, of course"? Why would that ever be necessary? How many of the LGBT people on this site would approve of that?

Not every statement needs to be qualified in that way. Saying "black lives matter" does not imply that all lives do not matter. To say that we should not say "black lives matter" is to say that there's no likelihood that any killings of black people have anything to do with their race. On the contrary, many of these killings have everything to do with their race. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away. Accepting and exacting a solution to a problem does.

Now, the people saying "all lives matter" are not being malicious in their intent (highly likely). They think they're doing it out of being "egalitarian", some kind of care to make sure that no one is possibly ignored. What they're really doing is implying that one cannot focus on the problems of one specific group, even if those problems are unique to that group or, if not, significantly more relevant to that group. We do this all the time with LGBT people. If it's permissible for LGBT people, why should it not also be for black people?

I believe I am saying the same thing as Aldrick, just with less "you people".

 

Thank you. (*hug*)

 

Gen and Aldrick pretty much summed up what is needed to be discussed about the importance of saying #Blacklivesmatter on this thread and I find it so upsetting and confusing that us people on the LGBT do not take a pause for a minute and try to reason out why this discrimination is happening. Our community is being oppressed by straight people and don't you think we should know how that feels like with the other groups of the minority?

 

Exactly! I'll admit that being LGBT automatically doesn't make you a great person, but they should know better because they know what it's like to be discriminated against.

 

I think there is a fine distinction between the useful and the superfluous.

#BlackLivesMatter was born out of a situation as a utility and has practical usage in fighting for a cause.

#AllLivesMatter should be obvious, always.

 

It was just a few years ago that Michelle Alexander came out with her book "The New Jim Crow" and hit us with an alarming statistic:

"More African American men are in prison or jail, on probation or parole than were enslaved in 1850, before the Civil War began." ​

What's more disturbing is that the numbers aren't even close - it's about twice as many. There is something deeply wrong with America's criminal justice system and I think we need to acknowledge the fact that racism is still a serious problem in this country.

1 in 3 black men can expect to go to prison at some point in their lives. Their incarceration rate is more than 6 times that of white men. Once they enter the prison system, they become 2nd class citizens. Felons are subject to all kinds of discrimination, including denial of housing, employment, and even voting rights. Disenfranchisement on this scale is particularly unfair when the felony comes from a non-violent crime such as drug possession. Is it time to say 'Black lives matter'? I'd say so.

 

Wow Aldrick way to put words out of my mouth. Those are so utterly ridiculous accusations made against me that I don't want to bother responding in detail about it. Of course I realize how bad discrimination is in the African American Community to this day and of course I realize the prison system is unfair to minorities. If they want to carry that slogan of BlackLivesMatter go for it does not offend and I know it is not made to offend anyone. I am just saying saying ALLlivesMatter does not offend me either. Every walk of life can face discrimination is all I am saying. Not trying to be a ignorant asshole that you implied i am in your post but think what you want.

 

Woah! Hold on there buddy!

Of course white people can experience racism.

Racism to use the simple dictionary definition: "hatred or intolerance of another race or other races."

If a white person experiences hatred or intolerance from any other race merely due to them being white, they have experienced racism. Anybody can be racist.

In fact the dictionary definition is perhaps too conservative. A black person can be racist towards their own race, much like how a gay person can be homophobic or spread homophobia.

---------- Post added 24th Jul 2015 at 11:58 AM ----------

Perhaps if you spoke in a non-accusatory and non-aggressive tone you might get more rational debates and discussions.

Calling people "two-faced", patronising and swearing - it is not conducive to getting people to listen to you.

Something to consider.

---------- Post added 24th Jul 2015 at 12:01 PM ----------

I think though, when there are other racial minorities experiencing very similar issues some as police brutalization, poverty, high arrest/detention rates (hispanics for instance) it might be wise to open up "Black Lives Matter" to something more open.

Its basic power in numbers, by grouping together with people in a similar boat you have a larger group and a larger voice.

Much like with LGB and Trans people - LBG and Transpeople are quite different groups (one group concerning a sexuality, the other a gender identity), but as the prejudice experienced were similar it made sense for the two groups to work together.

 

It's not that. It's that, in practice, the policing system and the media do afford value to white lives much more than black lives. I doubt this is intentional, but it happens. Black Lives Matter is an attempt to change that by pointing out this disparity and getting people to see that they need to value black lives as much as white lives. To say All Lives Matter completely misses the point. This isn't about white lives, because we already think those matter in this country, this is specifically about those lives that are marginalized. Can't fix that without emphasizing it.

 

The thing about controversial topics, is that there's almost never a right answer. That's why they spark controversy. Yet every time we have a touchy thread like this, just about all I see is folks telling other folks that they're wrong. Nary a mature conversation in sight. We can discuss these subjects civilly (although I suppose the internet isn't a place where I can expect that ), so I'm curious as to why we don't. Either way, people shouldn't have fear aggressive responses to their opinions.

It's fine to have a bold opinion, but if you're not going to be considerate of other point of views, at the very least, please be polite.

 

I was not responding to you directly. I was speaking in generalities, and specifically avoiding singling people out. Let me explain what made me angry.

I can understand people being ignorant of how something might be offensive. We experience this same type of ignorance from straight people all the time. I felt that I was being generous to people, considering this thread was about Raven Symone doing the very offensive thing that people in this thread then proceeded to do. Even so, I decided to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Gen, others, and myself then proceeded to explain why it was offensive and why it was damaging. People read those responses, and then decided to continue to proceed anyway. This left me flabbergasted. I honestly couldn't believe it. Were people really being that callous? Were they trying to be offensive on purpose? Or did they really just not give a shit?

Understand, this is not a conversation about opinions. For example, we can discuss what to do regarding unfair and racist policing practices. Good people of good intentions can disagree. However, we are not discussing opinions here, we're talking about facts. It is factually true that when people are trying to discuss issues facing African American people, that when someone says All Lives Matter it is actively ignoring the issues facing African Americans. It is literally no different than if we were discussing hate crimes committed against the LGBT community, and straight people started saying, 'straight lives matter too!' Every single person here would have no trouble understanding why this would be offensive, and they would likely be angry. This is why I said it was two-faced and hypocritical.

I also believe it is two-faced and hypocritical, because throughout this thread I was reflecting back to 2008 and conversations I've heard from allies in the African American community. Back in 2008 Prop 8 passed in California, and President Obama was elected by a large margin. Numerous people in the LGBT community were enraged at Prop 8 passing, and they were quick to blame African Americans who they claimed stabbed them in the back. 'We should be supporting each other!' they said. From allies in the African American community I constantly hear how they are frustrated that they will support and fight for LGBT rights, but LGBT groups and folks will not reciprocate when it comes to their issues. To see (overwhelmingly) white LGBT people basically engaging in this obviously offensive action... it is just unacceptable.

It is even more unacceptable here on EC, where we are supposed to be a community welcoming to all LGBT people, including LGBT people of color. This requires us to have some understanding of the intersectionality of LGBT issues and other issues that people may face.

Honestly, it just blows my mind. I can't wrap my head around it. Even if people still didn't understand after the explanations, it makes more sense to engage in a discussion, rather than to disregard what was said--as if we were having a discussion about opinions, which we are not. These things have real and tangible consequences that can be measured and understood. That makes them factual things.

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741852963 -

I will respond to you when I get home. Unfortunately, I'm about to leave for a funeral. If I do not respond tonight, I will respond tomorrow.

 

And the media?

Seriously?

When was the last time we had a 20 week long news story about a white guy being killed? Seriously? I don't even remember.

I see nothing, but stories about black people being killed on the news and it's usually handled like the greatest tragedy in human history, but any white person who dies it's like "Eh...maybe we'll talk about it but probably not"

Which is fine, by the way, I don't much care. My point here is only that Media is far more focused on the lives of Black people than anyone else...I think white women who are being serial murdered tends to gain some traction too, but mostly the police vs black people thing.

---------- Post added 24th Jul 2015 at 05:47 PM ----------

This has been on my mind all day at work. This statement here and I have a question for you.

In a previous thread ( like a few months back ) I think you me and a few other people were having a discussion on Feminism and I brought up certain Men's issues such as circumcisions, divorce bias, and male suicide.

In that argument several people said these were issues caused by the patriarchal system blah blah blah ( I don't remember all the words and terminology ) anyways...the essence of their point was that in pursuing feminism's agenda you were addressing these issues via byproduct ( since there has been zero indication of interest in actively addressing them directly )


and so now I have a question.

Why is it okay to take these issues and bundle them up into the large issue of Feminism, but not okay to take the issue here and bundle it up into the issue of human life as a whole?


In other words.

Why is there this massive contradiction between the viewpoint expressed before and the one here and now?

 

Disclaimer: This is a very long post, but I wanted to be thorough so I appreciate those who take the time.

This is because some issues are byproducts of a larger social phenomenon that effects everyone deeply and some are issues that specifically effect a specific social groups.

Take Feminism: If you line up the sexism that men face next to the sexism that women face, they are almost completely comparable. For example, women are victimized for being seen as weak and emotional. Men are forbidden to be emotional and less likely to be acknowledged as victims. Gender issues are often centered around double-edged swords. The ways that men are penalized and oppressed in society is a byproduct of the ways that women are oppressed.

Now saying that there are some feminist who don't recognize men's issues is 100% percent accurate, but true feminism has to address both men's and women's issues because you cannot change the way we view femininity in society without changing the way we view masculinity.

~~~​

All social issues are not like this, however. Take the example about public health:

The problem with meeting breast cancer advocates with comments such as "What about other diseases? What about other health concerns? Why should it be all about breast cancer?" is that there is no universal cure for disease. Public heath causes do not work on the byproduct/double-edge sword ideal, by which we could focus on issues that effect everyone or even one group and everything else becomes cured by proxy. Public health causes can't always be about everyone. Sometimes we can focus on curing the virus, which would be groundbreaking for the concerns of all human beings. Sometimes we have to focus on diseases that might only affected people with specific body types, sexes, disabilities, etc.

We cannot research and dedicate our efforts to every single disease that plagues humanity simultaneously. We have to clinics, advocates, donors, etc, who specify in working towards the treatment of specific diseases. Approaching Breast Cancer advocates with the mindset that "they should be focuses on diseases that effect all types of people rather than predominantly women" is neither fair nor practical.

~~~​

Tying things back to the issue of "All Lives Matter", there are so many people who have entered this thread with the immediate assumption of:

The surface answer is absolutely nothing. Of course, all lives should be seen as equally valuable. Everyone should agree with that statement. The problem is that people aren't considering the actual meaning being what is being said and paying attention to all of the statements that often come before people use that phrase. Here is an example:

These are phrases that are specific for a reason. Not because they are meant to be exclusive, rather because they are meant to remind you of something. Remind us of something that we as a society often forget. These phrases do not mean supremacist ideology. They are not painting people of other groups are less than. They are responses social mindsets or behavior that says otherwise.

"All Girls Are Beautiful" is something that we should ideally remember, but it doesn't truly represent much below the surface. "Trans Girls Are Beautiful" is a statement that forces us to think about the times that we might have viewed trans women as less than. It makes us think about the way that we treat them in society. It makes us think about the scrutiny and opposition that they are met with. It makes ignorant and hateful people uncomfortable in the best possible way. It is powerful because it has a meaning that reminds of us something that most of us need to remember more often than we should. It is not a phrase that deserves to be corrected.

We need phrases that aren't always inclusive of our own lives, identities, or lifestyles because they remind us of lives, identities, and social issues that we can all too easily forget. That is why we aren't just complaining about semantics.