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Bisexual Erasure

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Taly, Jul 8, 2015.

  1. Secrets5

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    So about choices. If a gay person commits suicide due to people hating on them for being gay, is that their choice? Or perhaps it's what people are saying to them that's making them want to commit suicide because they can't go on. I'm talking about countries such as USA where homophobia [which isn't ''being scared of'' but rather hating on it] exists but laws won't kill you. I mean, people will say it is the homophobic's person that made them kill themselves, and not them. But going by what you're saying, if it's an individual's choice, then it's their choice, and not the other person.

    And why should we put ourselves in their shoes? I mean, should we try to understand why a religious person hates on gay people? I can try and answer that for you since I'm also religious. One of the main ones I can think of is that gay people can't procreate the next generation of Christians. In counteract, many straight couples who have children to don't raise them as Christians so there won't be the next generation there either.

    Although this isn't about bisexuality, [and I've done this because you're gay] I'd like you to reply to that because if you're saying it's a choice for one person, then surely it's a choice for all, but for some reason it doesn't work like that.

    I'll do it for bi hating. They think I'm going to cheat on them, I've read someone about they think I have desires for the other sex whilst I'm with them. Even if I do have that desire, I will ignore that and stay with them because I know a long term relationship is more important for me than a one night stand. I also can't have a one night stand because I need to get to know someone for a long while before having sex with them, which they will know from my relationship with them. [I can't speak for all bisexuals, but here's an answer if you want it].
     
  2. biAnnika

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    I maintain (and have heard nothing to counter):

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that experts in sexuality studies are trying to erase bisexuality. I think we're a bit annoyed that many people in society act as if our sexuality is not a thing. It's hard to take advice like "meh...just ignore it" when virtually nobody in your day-to-day life seems to get the idea. Experts have it right. But most people in society *act* as though bisexuality isn't a thing. That's hard to ignore, Chip.

    It's not incomparable to telling gay people "all credible experts understand that homosexuality is natural and normal, so any homophobic comments just shouldn't be taken seriously." It's not that we're taking it seriously (i.e., believing it)...it's that the damned comments hurt! Forgive us an emotional reaction to pain.

    I agree that the kind of denial people are talking about is not biphobic. To suggest so is like suggesting that atheists are against God. They aren't against God...they don't even believe in such a being.

    In point of fact, most people who *act* and *speak* as though bisexuality doesn't exist aren't doing so out of hatred or even disbelief in bisexuality. Just like most people who say "that's so gay" or call their friends "faggot" don't actually feel dislike toward homosexuals. But that doesn't mean the comments aren't hurtful and frustrating, does it?

    When people are in pain, it accomplishes little to tell them that their language in expressing their pain is overly emotional bullshit. All it does is make you sound like an insensitive ass, who doesn't care about their pain.
     
  3. TXTurbo90

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    I have experienced a fair amount of people speaking of bisexual people as "closet gay transitioning", "just horny", "slut that will F*** anything on two legs", "not a real sexuality", etc.

    Do I think that it would be considered erasure? Not really... It is just that gay/lesbian people are not a "threat" that they could end up dating if they are hetero-normative, so people feel it is still more socially acceptable to bash bisexuals. The gay rights movement has been very active for some time now, but little attention has been paid to those who do not fall into the heterosexual/homosexual duality. This has left many people that are not Kinsey zeros or sixes to feel like they have to make a choice between one or the other.

    I have gotten comments from people that are much the same as Bisexual, with a few more about trying to justify what I identify as being chalked up to "Gay with special snowflake syndrome" and "depraved tranny f***er" (being pansexual, I have been attracted to non-binary people, but unfortunately haven't had the opportunity to be with one.. So the last comment really pisses me off.)

    We are definitely discriminated against and questioned on the legitimacy of our sexuality more than others in the LGBT community (besides trans people). I don't think that we should bash people who feel they are experiencing erasure, as I would say I could agree with the term previously before fully accepting myself. It's bit extreme of a word to use, but it hits hard when you are still questioning.
     
  4. AtheistWorld

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    I love these threads

    ---------- Post added 23rd Mar 2016 at 04:48 PM ----------

    What about when you defended white plagiarism in the cultural appropriation thread? You refused to admit it was oppression and exploitation, yet here when the barbs are directed at you, you cry.
     
    #64 AtheistWorld, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
  5. Chip

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    The decision to commit suicide is always, always the choice of the person committing the act. There are lots of people (including many friends I have) who grew up having people absolutely hate on them, whether because they were gay, or didn't "fit in" or for any of a million other reasons. These people are still around, so clearly they were not forced to commit suicide by someone hating on them, even though several of them were depressed and considered it.

    This isn't in any way to devalue the struggle, or to legitimize bullying; certainly someone can be driven to depression by bullying, and when depressed, someone can make a foolish decision.

    Bullying is not OK, and that's why we have laws prohibiting it, because it has severe emotional impact, including suicide attempts, that arise as a result of bullying behavior.

    At the same time, the child who attempts suicide is lacking in resilience, and likely has a shame-prone personality; there are lots of bullied kids who speak out, and get help. It is the shame-prone ones who do not. Again, this is a nuanced area, but ultimately when we let another person's beliefs impact our own feelings, that's an issue we must take responsibility for ourseives, and shame is an enormous factor in the lives of nearly every LGBT person in the world that deserves to be talked about and resolved. Trying to pin the blame on someone else for making us feel the way we do doesn't help our own self-growth.

    Because when we can understand how another person feels, and what is motivating them to feel the way they do, we gain insight into their thinking process. This, in turn, opens a door to mutual understanding, and a finding of common ground. And, quite often, a change in thinking that goes a lot farther toward the sort of understanding and acceptance you're seeking (but unlikely to gain) through the use of inartful and ineffective dramatic and emotional language.

    I've never heard an antigay Christian offer up the above as an argument against being gay. And it would be a heavily flawed argument, since there are plenty of gay couples that adopt who do raise their children in Christian or other religious faiths.

    Again, that's a reasonable and sensible answer. And when you find someone who's emotionally healthy, and not scared to death, she or he will be fine with that answer. That person isn't going to judge you because you're bisexual. And the one who does? That isn't someone you want to be with, because s/he has enough emotional problems of his or her own that it's going to be hard to have a healthy relationship. And that's my point... you can let that person hold his or her beliefs, and eventually come around to doing his or her own work, without letting it affect you.
     
  6. WanderingMind

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    Oh? You mean language like this:

    Chip... I really think you need to take a swallow of your own medicine and listen. Carefully. Respectfully. Perhaps with a bit of an open mind.
     
    #66 WanderingMind, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
  7. cibi

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    these things don't matter at all if you think about it
    statements like there is no such thing as bisexuals...
    I mean why would you even care ? I also don't understand why people like to label sexuality all the freakin time.


    Oh also whats with the + at the end of lgbt ?
     
  8. biAnnika

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    Hmmm...and the connection you see is...?

    Did I tell people it was wrong to use the word "cultural appropriation"? Did I tell them that they were being overly emotional? Did I in fact call bullshit on anything? Or did I simply express that I didn't understand something, and lay out what my understanding was and why I didn't understand?

    And am I crying, or am I in fact standing up for those who are?
     
  9. Naxams

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    dang that got deep
     
  10. Chip

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    For what it's worth, I've been listening, respectfully, with an open mind, on these issues for many, many years, and few, if any of my views/positions are inflexible as can be observed by the evolution of some of my views over time. What's required to change my viewpoint is compelling argument, based in fact or something grounded in other than just opinion.

    One viewpoint that isn't likely to change: I'm a strong believer in the importance of accuracy in language. When we misuse words, and particularly when we misuse words with the intent of stirring up drama and emotion (as with "erasure"), we pretty much never accomplish what we're after.
     
  11. smurf

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    I'm sorry, but what the OP was after isn't trying to convince straight or other LGBT people that bi people exist. The purpose was not to create this amazing thread to educate everyone and solve the problem.

    The purpose was to find support for the feelings they are having, find people dealing with the same problems, and be able to get enough emotional support so then they can have time to articulate their feelings in the efforts to maybe educate others in the future.

    But now the thread has been derailed and taken over by your own agenda, and what he was after took the back seat. I think you missed the point here.
     
    #71 smurf, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
  12. Browncoat

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  13. Nickw

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    I don't really want to fire things up here because I think there might be two things going on. One is how bisexuality in much of society is perceived. Maybe erasure is a strong word. I don't know...I'm too chicken to be out...so can't be erased anyway. The other though is personal. I was describing my wife not wanting sex any longer to a friend as "I feel like she is erasing my bisexuality too". Emotional?...you bet, dramatic?...maybe! I am trying to find a better word for how I felt but none comes to mind. I tried "diminishing" which is maybe more accurate. But, when are emotions completely accurate?
     
  14. Dingdang

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    I'm glad you brought this up. In fact, I shall write about this topic in a book that I'm working on.

    Anyway, you said that you were "under the belief that sexuality is a VERY fluid thing". You also stated that you feel that people are "supposed to believe sexuality is something defined". In both cases, you used the word "belief" or "believe", and so I have to point out that you're on the right track. You see, believing something is trusting that some condition is true without having processed that condition logically. Beliefs, therefore, derive from factors other than the rational processing of the condition that is believed. Instead, they must be influenced by environmental factors, such as upbringing. The term I'm going to use here is exactly the one you used: social conditioning. I prefer sometimes to call it "cultural conditioning" when I need to be more specific. Nevertheless, social conditioning makes everyone see the world in a different shade. In my book, I compared conditioning to wearing a pair of fragmented sunglasses that you don't notice exist. To become enlightened, you must identify the fragments and remove them to see the world in the true light. It seems that you have removed the fragment of bisexuality, and this is a good thing. Those who haven't removed this fragment are the source of your frustration, and when you mention that the social conditioning may be "narrow minded", I reply that all conditioning is narrow minded. Conditioning is based on tradition, not logic.

    People who have been conditioned to belief in the binary gender system and binary sexuality (i.e. most if not all of us) might not accept transgender people and bisexual/pansexual/polysexual people, and this was the case for a long time. Actually,the transgender movement has made some progress, (and much of this is due to the shift from the word "transsexual" to "transgender",) but there is more room for expansion. For instance, Rachel Dolezal claims to be "transracial", and many people do not accept this. If the term were "transethnic", then she may be accepted due to the progress of the transgender movement. After all (and I've said this in a previous post),

    Gender is to society and sex is to biology, just as
    ethnicity is to culture and race is to genetics.

    To make a long story short, many people are too ignorant to think that bisexuality exists, and our world has as much social conditioning as that of Brave New World, though the conditioning in our world is not controlled by government. (Isn't that a good thing for us, the enlightened ones? :icon_wink)

    I hope this post was of any help.
     
  15. WanderingMind

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    Chip. I encourage you to listen carefully to the *feelings* people are communicating in posts with language you find offensive and ask yourself: are they purposefully stirring up drama and emotion, or expressing something else? I challenge you to question whether *you* may not understand the use of this word by people who identify as bisexual because *you* don't share the same feelings or experiences. Your profile states you identify as gay. If you were to describe feelings or experiences I didn't understand, I might reasonably chalk my lack of understanding up to the fact I'm not gay! I might ask you to further explain the feelings themselves. I might even ask you to further explain why you chose certain words... but I wouldn't discredit you out of hand. I wouldn't assume your intentions or say that any word you use is "simply bullshit" and "has no value." For what it's worth, I don't find this reaction to be an example of respectful listening.

    Words mean a lot to me, too, as does the concept that we bisexuals tend to call erasure. So, Chip, if you want to continue ranting about the use of that term and telling me why it's wrong, please start a new thread.

    I'm sorry, OP. Let's get back to discussing the ideas in the original post...

    I think it might be because for many people sexuality *is* one concrete thing, or they want to believe it is. Heck! When I came to the realization *I* liked women, even I tried to kill that part of me at first. It felt overwhelmingly threatening, and if I'd been able to deny it life, I'd have done so without hesitation. Now, I'm glad I didn't/couldn't... but that's not the point.

    Additionally, even if a person only likes men or only likes women, I'd challenge them to think about whether they experience their sexuality in terms of only ONE PERSON. While many people are monogamous (including many bisexuals), that's not the same as only being attracted to one person for life.

    I think that bisexuality is complex... and perhaps it makes people uncomfortable *because* it's complex.
     
    #75 WanderingMind, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
  16. wanderinggirl

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    I didn't think of "erasure" as an overly dramatic word until you started connecting it to the holocaust. Bi erasure is discussed a lot, and generally in contexts such as:
    -Women on dating sites saying they won't date bi women (because they think we're all straight but experimenting... which I can understand might be due to hurtful past experiences, but is more often about not believing someone can like both)
    -TV characters (hem hem Piper on OITNB) having relationships with both men and women, being identified as either "straight" or "lesbian" or "whatever" but never ever mentioning the term "bisexual"
    -Studies claiming that all women are bi (discrediting it as a "real" identity rather than a gender characteristic) or that no men are bi (proving definitively that men are either straight or gay)

    "Erasure" is an apt word for this phenomenon, and I don't think anyone think it implies killing off of bisexuals: just the implicit exclusion of us from certain queer spaces and narratives.

    One alternative we might all agree on is "invisibility". But it's less active, and seems more to implicate bisexuals themselves who come off a straight when they are in straight relationships and gay when they are in gay relationships; whereas "erasure" is active and implies that the LGBT community at large can do something about said "erasure", not just bisexuals who don't scream their identities from rooftops.

    For more sources:
    -Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_erasure
    -GLAAD: Erasure of Bisexuality | GLAAD
    -The Advocate: The Year in Bisexual Invisibility | Advocate.com (really good article too)

    And on erasure in general, from Oxford Dictionaries online: "erasure - The removal of writing, recorded material, or data." (erasure: definition of erasure in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US))
    I don't believe it'd be out of line to claim that lack of inclusion of bi identities in queer spaces and pop culture can be described as "removal of writing, recorded material, or data" about bisexuality.

    ---------- Post added 31st Mar 2016 at 02:36 PM ----------

    Also to answer the question more generally, I don't think I'm more oppressed than gay people. It's not a battle of "who's more oppressed", but that bi people face overlapping yet distinct issues than gay/lesbian people.

    What I do worry about is that if I give into pressure to identify as gay that people will see me as "going back to men" if I ever do date a man again in the future. But I guess that's their problem not mine. I've tried identifying as monosexual but it doesn't explain everything about me so I feel like it's inaccurate. I like the freedom to be able to explore dating other genders in the future should I need to do so. It'd just be nice if like who I dated didn't affect peoples' trust in me, because I know it does. That's all.
     
    #76 wanderinggirl, Mar 31, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2016
  17. TheLionRoars360

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    When I told my grandmother I was questioning my sexuality, she said something similar:

    "Yeah, but there are very, VERY few people who like both, if there are even any at all."

    Also:

    Me: "But Grandma, I like boys, too."
    Her: "You can't like both."

    So, yeah. I don't know, I think she has just grown up around homophobia since she's from a couple of generations back, so it's imbedded very deep in her brain. She's already more flexible about different sexual orientation than most people from her generation, so bisexuality just "Crosses her mental line", I guess.
     
  18. Chip

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    There are certainly a lot of people who simply don't understand the concept of bisexuality, though that viewpoint seems more common among people over 30 than people under 30.

    The best we can do is educate. The issue of validity of bisexuality isn't even slightly controversial; it's been well documented and discussed for close to 70 years. And when we educate calmly, instead of using inaccurate, emotional, and dramatic words (regardless of what other sources may use or misuse those words), we're a lot more likely to get people to listen to us.
     
  19. biAnnika

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    Totally agreed with all of this. Ty Chip.

    But it's worth remembering that there are attempts to educate, and then there are frustrated ventings. And this thread (I believe) was not meant as an attempt to educate.

    Also, phenomena that are scientifically non-controversial (e.g., evolution) can still be heavily debated and highly controversial in some areas (e.g., Kansas), and so produce quite a bit of real-world frustration that validates venting...particularly on a support site.
     
    #79 biAnnika, Apr 2, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016