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Gender is entirely socially contructed?

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by alilnervous, Jun 16, 2015.

  1. alilnervous

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    We are saying the same thing, I don't know why I'm coming across like I want to stop people from being something :eusa_doh:. I said destroy stereotypes, premeditated ideas of how women and men should be like and what they should do and their differing capabilities, not to stop the stereotypes from happening.
     
  2. darkcomesoon

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    No worries. Wasn't trying to disagree with you. I just know that the idea of abolishing gender is related and often comes up in these conversations so I wanted to state my opinion. Sounds like we're on the same page :slight_smile:
     
  3. Gandee

    Gandee Guest

    This is a good discussion, I will put my final thought here
    "to destroy" does come off as dramatic so a better phrase should be "to provide equal opportunities to both genders in all aspects of life". In the end, we all want the same thing. I can relate to not understanding what it means to act masculine/feminine though, it gives me a headache so I choose not to think about it at all :lol:
     
  4. antibinary

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    Most of it, though I'd stop short of saying all of it. Gender roles though...
     
  5. AsiaJ33

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    My brother says that one day, hopefully soon, "male" and "female" won't refer to your "gender," but the type of body you have. I mean, they'll probably be different words, but basically there will be no gender, just body type/genitals.
     
  6. mukumuku

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    Personally, I don't agree with the notion that gender is separate from gender roles. I've never heard a definition of gender that doesn't involve some kind of stereotype involving clothing, hobbies, etc. which sounds pretty sexist to me.

    As AsiaJ33 said, I am hoping that the notion of gender will someday not exist and we'll just have male/female referring to reproductive organs and not imply anything else.

    Also, we don't know why male and female brains are different - is it biology? Is it socialization? A combo of both? etcetc. Also lesbian brains are more "male" and gay brains are more "female" but that doesn't imply being in the wrong body, it implies non-normative sexuality.
     
  7. Fallingdown7

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    To be honest, I kind of agree. I also feel like this is the reason why non-binary genders are becoming more overused since a lot of people are becoming confused by thinking masculine roles make them not female anymore. It is pretty sexist.

    As for male and female brains, I do think a small part of it is socialization (even trans people have to unlearn the socialization of their biological sex) but I also believe they are truly biologically different without being socialized even in physical shape. Gay people are more bigender in brains, but even they can have psychology matching their physical sex.

    One example is porn, with studies showing that the male brain is more visual (Such as straight men only enjoying straight or lesbian porn because of "attractive" women) while the female brain is more environmental (such as straight women also enjoying lesbian porn because of the scenery being "softer" or simply better to them). However, this does not change in the gay community. Most gay men will also only watch gay porn for attractive men, and a lot of lesbians also like gay male porn because of realistic scenery lesbian porn lacks.

    So I believe this is a very circumstantial thing that is hard to really prove yet.
     
  8. YuriBunny

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    Gender is not a social construction, but the roles, stereotypes, etc associated with it are.

    Which is confusing. Because I am left not understanding gender because I don't know how to judge it without all the social construction so strongly attached to it. What exactly determines someone's gender? I just don't know. o.o
     
  9. Minnie

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    Agreed. Otherwise I'd expect to see different numbers of people identifying as transgender. That said, humans are social creatures and so it's possible (likely) that a neurological aspect of gender has been affected by social interactions. That said I'm no expert in either fields so I couldn't say with certainty. Could it be possible that it is indeed a social construct we have evolved with?
     
  10. Just Jess

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    I'd like to ask for people's thoughts on the effects of different hormones on the mind, and how that interplays with all of this. There's some folks in this thread, yours truly included, who have had the benefit of experiencing both sets. I don't think any of this conversation needs to prove anything - goodness knows we all feel like we need to defend and explain ourselves quite often enough thank you! Anyone's ideas and theories I think have some merit to them and are worth hearing out. It's just that this is a personally fascinating topic for me.
     
  11. mukumuku

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    Thanks for this response.. lots to think about.

    More about porn studies, perhaps the same one you're referring to - men are pretty predictable in terms of what they get turned on by, and it's directly related to what their sexual orientation is (gay men like straight or m/m porn, straight men like straight or f/f porn, etc). Women, however, are just as likely to be turned on by girl-on-girl porn as straight porn regardless of whether or not they identify themselves as straight, lesbian, etc. So yeah, for women it is pretty contextual.

    An interesting part of that study - MtF folks had the same arousal patterns as males, even after fully transitioning (hormones + bottom surgery). So in that case, while one might find that there are clear differences in the brain structure, at least one significant physiological response is tied to sex regardless of gender identity and/or sexuality. So that has some interesting/confusing implications. I can find that study if anyone wants to see it. Also if anyone has similar studies with results that refute these, I'd be interested to read them.

    I find this topic super interesting!!!
     
  12. Eveline

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    Such studies should always be taken with a grain of salt. For example, here's a quote from one of the studies:

    "We were surprised to find that the mean VPA-
    subjective correlation in the nonhomosexual transsexual
    group was significantly higher than in the homosexual
    transsexual group, and that the latter group did not differ
    from the natal female group."

    From this study:

    http://www.researchgate.net/profile...ysmography/links/0deec518bc04546ee5000000.pdf

    Lets see the problems with the statement, first of all, the researchers mentioned that they were surprised to find. In other words they expected certain results which is usually a bad indication. However, more importantly, in the study, the homosexual transsexual group refers to trans woman who are attracted to male and not female individuals. Notice that the prenatal group weren't separated according to their sexual orientation which points to the fact that most of them would most likely be heterosexual. Now if we view this using correct terminology, the heterosexual MtF group had a similar VPA score to the heterosexual female group... the fact that the researchers don't even mention this fairly obvious correlation and see it as surprising, shows that there is clear bias when they analyzed the results and wrote the research paper.

    Just to be clear, they use the next page to try to explain why these surprising results happened while not mentioning once the obvious fact that there is a simple correlation here between two groups with the same sexuality and gender.

    Furthermore, the research groups were problematic as the mean age of the transsexuals were 20 years older than that of the natal female group. Even if age doesn't influence the results, this still does beg the question why didn't the researchers make more of an effort to find participants of similar ages and backgrounds to reduce the margin of error.
     
    #32 Eveline, Jun 24, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2015
  13. AlexTheGrey

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    The iffy thing about studies such as the one you mention though, is that the research here is really rough, and builds on top of some rather shaky ideas. Some issues I personally have with the study you mention:

    1) Sample size of 11. Which is problematic even without considering the other issues that demand larger sample sizes.
    2) Categorization based on "homosexual/autogynephillic" ideas pushed by Blanchard. This creates a comparison of MtFs who are attracted to men, against everyone else. The male and female studies used a variation of the Kinsey scale to divide things up. While this can easily be described as a limitation of the sample size, it does trouble me that it can represent a bias in the measurement by using an entirely different mechanism to define sexual orientation in trans individuals. I also won't really get into the deeper issues with Blanchard's categorizations here, because I could write a whole article on it. Maybe I should.
    3) No comment on time spent on HRT or post op except they were all post op by 3 months. This is another issue since it lends no insight into the results of the data. It isn't a strict failing of the study, but it does mean other factors can be masked within the data set that might skew the results towards a male pattern, such as a relatively short period of time on HRT compared to time since puberty of the members in the female study.
    4) FtM individuals, by the nature of the study, are completely ignored. This reveals the research bias of scrutiny towards MtF, and manages to ignore another potential data point that could be interesting (do changes happen when the rate of "bottom surgery" is much lower?).

    I'd say another study would be useful, and I'm not exactly saying they didn't measure something real, but it is possible enough with such a small sample that you can find out that the results on a large scale are very different. It would also benefit from a much more complete catalogue of time spent with HRT, possibly by revisiting the same individuals multiple times over the course of say a decade every 2 years. If this result holds in a better study, then the longer tracking period is useful to see how "immobile" this is, versus something that is possibly rewired over a longer period of time (a la neuroplasticity).

    But with other studies pointing out that how individuals get aroused does seem to change with HRT, as well as their libido, it paints a really muddy picture. Especially when one of the authors of the study is someone in Blanchard's camp, and has pushed the idea that all MtF individuals who aren't attracted to men are suffering from some form of autogynephillia (also being described as "misdirected heterosexuality"). This particular circle tends to really be focused on trying to find a disorder they can blame for the behavior of MtF individuals. Studies like this one tend to shore up that idea when the measurements you use include "which form of this disorder do they have?".

    Considering we are brought up through social interactions, it is almost guaranteed that they play a role. How much, and what kind would be up for debate, and a good area of study to pursue. I am a hot mess of stuff that all adds up into what passes as a human being. And yes, some of it is innate, and some of it is ingrained through upbringing and socialization.

    But part of it is how we expect others to interact with us. Could I have internalized the idea somewhere that I should expect people to interact with me as a woman? Wish I knew.
     
  14. Nightdream

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    I believe gender roles are socially constructed, but not gender. In a completely different society were men are supposed to wear dresses and high heels while it would be very unacceptable for women to use those pieces of clothing, a transman that was born into a place that gender roles were very strict would have strong desires to be in a dress to be recognised as the man he is.

    My theory is that gender roles were created for people to communicate each other what gender they are, so they are socially construct. That's something very different from the gender you identify with since it's something completely biological and unchangeable.
     
  15. AlexTheGrey

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    Well, not just communicate their gender (which is a valuable thing when it comes to reproduction), but to divvy up tasks in a society when certain things like birth rate matter. But, it has gotten well beyond the point where these things actually provide benefit to society at large anymore. Yet large segments of society enforce them for those very reasons, under the assumption that we need more people to grow our economy, when we keep seeing trends that state the opposite.