Straight women calling gay men misogynistic?

We can in another thread to prevent this one from being derailed. Browncoat and I were only talking about how much people tend to struggle to acknowledge and talk about these things. There are plenty of reasons why they should be talked about though...

 

Ok, but have you seen gay neo-nazis? Gay Aryan Nations Members Are the Fringe of the Fringe | Southern Poverty Law Center

 

Yeah, this is something I've been thinking about a lot recently, and it bothers me. There are gay men who are misogynistic, racist, transphobic, etc., and we shouldn't condone any of that within the LGBTQA community, but I've heard so many people just go on and on about it, and then whenever gays comment on homophobia among other minority groups, they're just labeled sexist/racist/whatever. That really bothers me.

And while I've never heard of the term "gay male privilege," I've definitely gotten the vibe that a lot of people think/act like being gay isn't as bad or as hard as being female, and that also bothers me a lot. I'm not saying that being gay is harder, but like you said, there's so much bullshit that gays have to go through and put up with that straight women simply haven't had to go through and put up with, so that kind of attitude just makes me feel like people aren't acknowledging or don't care about the hell I (and so many other gays) have gone through. And again, I'm not saying that being gay is harder, I'm not female, so I don't know what it's like to be female in this day and age, and I acknowledge that women face unique struggles that gay men don't have to put up with, hence why I don't engage in the oppression olympics, and I wish more people would go that route.

I will, however, say that I have heard stories about gay men groping women's breasts, and that just left me dumbfounded on so many levels. But at the end of the day, I agree with Pret on that issue; it doesn't matter whether or not you're attracted to the person in question, unless you get permission from the person in question to touch their body in a certain way, their body is off limits to you, period, end of story. And touching another person's body in an unwanted/aggressive/sexual way without their consent is straight-up assault and harassment, and should not be tolerated by anyone.

 

I think I'm going to have to come down on the side of women (and trans in either direction) in this. When the very body you're born into is used as a weapon against you, as opposed to what you do with that body in the bedroom (or a truckstop bathroom stall, whatever), you're pretty much going to live in a state of perpetual terror. This often produces wild accusations that may not even be accurate for the people or situation in question, but are perfectly understandable given the motivation of constant suspicion of nearly everyone.

I'm not saying it's ideal to make sweeping generalizations about any group of people, but I guess in these circumstances, I get it.

 

Okay, I am a gay guy, and I say things like this to my heterosexual female friends: "If straight women don't like the MGTOWs, then they are freaking nuts." That is one type of thing that certain women go on about that aggravates me. If some men don't want to risk spreading genes that apparently make them incapable of dealing effectively with the opposite sex, then you ought to be dancing in the streets, I say. However, that's far too logical; therefore, it will never be popular.

One woman that I know used to be resentful toward certain crossdressers and see them as closet-misogynists. Fortunately, her feelings on CDs have mellowed out a lot, and she has recently, after having gotten to know a few, begun to take a more logical perspective on them. The thing is, the original complaint demonstrates a major source of awkwardness in gender relations: women who have genuine problems don't seem to want to face up to what is really bothering them.

Yes, some women have actually been screwed a few times too many (in the bad way), and they understandably start to see misogyny at the drop of a hat. They have a lot of anger, and they are prepared to jump into anybody's shit, for any reason, over this issue.

Their reasons for being catty are genuine and understandable, but the way it comes out tends to end up being mutated a great deal from its source. The poor OP has apparently met a few of those women who choose to take out their frustrations on gays, and yes, they shouldn't do this.

The best wisdom that I can share with you is to keep in your mind that you did not cause them the pain that has them behaving in this way. Be patient, and read between the lines. Try to listen, and funnel peace and agreeableness down their throats until it starts running out their ears. If you shove enough agreeableness down their throats, they'll eventually give in and start talking about what's really bugging them, thereby making things a lot simpler for you.

 

Okay, uh, I understand the points you're making here, I really do, but let's discuss something as subtle and subversive as the simple language you're using while making them.

How about we don't talk about the rape of women and other socially-enforced forms of violence and subjugation in such a casual and light-hearted way? I'm sure you were just being light-hearted, and this comment was intended to be humorous, but it actually reflects the exact problem of consistent and cultural dismissal that causes these negative stereotypes, and defensive responses against them, to be so prevalent.

How about we don't suggest forcing anything down the orifices of women? Again, I'm sure this was meant in an ironic and jovial way, but in a discussion about the very fact that women are routinely abused, even phrases like "eventually they'll give in" actually sort of horrify me.

 

But it's so fun to say!

 

...
I... can't tell if you're being sardonic or not.

If you are: Maybe for you, but perhaps there would be less of the problem OP described and fewer genuinely non-misogynist gay men would be accused if there were less of this.

If you aren't: Holy shit, dude. Yeah, your passing enjoyment of a phrase is definitely more important than potential victims of sexual assault feeling safe. (That was sarcasm.)

 

To all the misogynists on here or in the world



I LOVE ELSA! Marry me! ♥

 

I wish more people wouldn't. Yes, I know those shiny gold medals are temping, but the Oppression Olympics is so corrupt.

(By the way, gays won the gold at the last, women won the silver, and furries won the bronze).

 

It's really hard to be serious in a world in which the majority of womeen have some sort of experience with rape, with far too many of them having been cruelly molested as children, yet we sit and pretend that rape doesn't exist or is some scary, abstract thing, off in in fairy-land. It is an everyday part of some people's existence. For a lot of women, being screwed and abused is dull routine, hardly more extraordinary than encountering a guy driving a BMW on your morning commute. It is many women's constant hell for their bodies to be treated like public property. As one of a handful of people, including women, who actually listen, when someone tries to discuss this with me privately, yeah, I'm a little jaded. The problem is not rape itself, but it's the fact that we brush it under the rug, and this contributes to the sense of loneliness and isolation endured by victims of rape. Human beings do this deliberately because we, as a species, are jerks. We, as a society, put an expectation upon women to live "up" to an expectation of chastity and fidelity that men proceed to go out of their way to make virtually impossible, and when women do succeed at curbing their lusts and playing the game, men complain because they come across as frigid and disinterested. In regard to their sexuality, heterosexual women are put in a no-win situation, in many ways. By the time they get to me, they're past the point of feeling insecure, and they're just pissed off, cynical and frustrated, with considerable justification, not just at men but at the entire system, so yeah, I make light of it because, if you have even passing familiarity with how evil our system really is, it's hard to maintain very much faith in humanity.

 

Okay, cool. This is a discussion I can definitely get behind you about. (Pun... intended, I guess? Humor. I can DO this.)

Everything you just described sums up so many reasons why I think it's so important to not give up. To remain as vigilant as possible, to never drop your guard-- not even for a second. I understand completely what you mean about the state of the world being a pretty legitimate cause for defeatism, and feeling jaded, and feeling so small and useless and helpless against the unwitting tides of rampant injustice and degradation that you believe nothing will ever change. That's exactly why I think even conversations like this, with strangers on a forum, are so important.

Whenever I think, what can I do? What the fuck impact can I realistically make in my stupid little life that might in any way improve someone else's, my answer is always this: Never. Stop. Talking about it.

Make jokes, yeah, to lighten the mood, but not dismissive ones. Confront, yeah, but for the purpose of establishing real dialogue. If those of us who do have the privilege of strength, and of self-defense, and of the control over our own minds to ensure awareness... if we retreat, who will hold the line? The ones who are wounded the most by it? We have to do this, my friend. We have to. We may not be able to help everyone, and we may not even be able to make some kind of observable change, but we are a vital part of the gradual and violent movement of improvement as a whole, and if we let the suffering of others make us suffer too much to be useful... we're not just failing them, we're failing ourselves.

See, this-- right here-- this is good. I'm very glad for your honesty, and your willingness to remind us all of what's really at stake.

 

Well, I'm sooooo oppressed, I didn't even get a medal.

#CheckDatPrivilege

 

I am a feminist and I am bothered by the word "misogynistic."
Definition: the hatred or dislike of women or girls
The term is just so vague and undescriptive. Often men who are labelled as "misogynistic" hate the idea of women having any sort of power to make them feel less strong and manly. Simply saying that they hate women seems so vague that it almost seems to be inaccurate.

 

As a woman I say that I have to agree with the statement that women are fucking stupid. Sure misogyny can be found in gay men but it is far less likely. I think a lot of women have lost the true meaning of the word misogynist and they confuse it with gay men saying that vaginas are gross. Lastly, I would also like to say that women that accuse men (gay or straight) of misogyny are more than likely misandrists.

 

That's not something I ever forget, because I am often one of them. However, it's always within my power to modulate my own behavior as I see necessary, and while I completely agree that this heteronormative state of affairs -- which forces such behavior-modification to be necessary for men like us -- is terrible, it's still not the same as literally having no control over how the world perceives you. As men, even gay men, we will always have more options than women or trans people who are literally trapped inside the prison of their own bodies. Our prison is a different sort, one less based on simple physics. Additionally, women can be gay too.

However, I also think -- as it seems other people have mentioned in this thread -- that trying to argue over 'who has it worse' is not helpful to either cause. If you got the impression that I was somehow trying to de-legitimize the suffering of my own social category (gay men), I apologize-- but perhaps let's check out the rest of my post, from which you quoted only the beginning:

The aspect that I was specifically defending, here, was the understandable urge to react so negatively to the perception of any slight against women, based on the "perpetual state of terror" described beforehand. It's important to consider what women are seeing when they see us as 'gay men.'

The real point is to not take it personally, to accept whatever benefits come with our own position as men, and to therefore extend compassion to those whose perspective of the world at large has been warped by a constant flood of fear and scorn. Surely gay men, also victims of a similar inescapable social reality, ready at all times to defend our masculinity against the slurs and the beatings, can show a little empathy.

We don't need to determine who has it worse. We need to say, "shit, we both have it bad, let's work together."

P.S. There are state-driven attempts to 'fix' women; they're called the last several thousand years of human civilization.

 

Actually, the official statistic is 1 in 6 adult women, but the problem with those kinds of numbers is under-reporting, which is very hard to effectively control for. Furthermore, there are several levels of sexual assault, and some can be dismissed unthinkingly. A slap on the butt or a grope in a public place, with large crowds of people, is unlikely to be reported to the cops, but it is still a form of sexual assault, which actually happens to me once in a while. The thing is, it's never going to be reported proportionate to its occurrence.

The under-reporting issue is a real problem. The reason that you see higher rates of reported sexual assault, in Sweden, is that women in Sweden are a lot more vigilant about reporting these crimes, and that does skew the statistics. You are never going to see a genuinely accurate picture of what is going on, though. The majority of things that happen, in people's lives, they never talk about and never think about. If you handed many victims of actual child molestation a questionnaire, it's unlikely you'd get honest answers, most of the time, for various reasons.

 

So true.

 

I'm sometimes called a misogynist, though, because I don't join in with the idea that perceiving women as capable of evil counts as misogyny. On the contrary, the reason I defend MGTOWs is that some men have encountered one too many women who are actually jerks. I do not hesitate to point this out, and I have been labeled for it. Sorry, but men can sour on the opposite sex simply because one too many women have treated them like crap.

However, I am just as honest about gay men. Gay men can be very cruel, and not all of them are nice, left-leaning, environmentally friendly boys with a couple of cats and a yoga mat. Some of them are actually way to the right of Attila the Hun, mean as snakes, selfish, and unbelievably hypocritical. This isn't because they're gay men, but it's because they are people.

I'm not saying that I hate people, but I am only able to love people because I have learned to love them unconditionally. I think that even an evil and cruel person, on some level, deserves a certain level of love and respect. I think that more people than we might appreciate could be fixed by trying to show them love and respect. Many people are turned ugly by the indignity they have faced throughout their lives. They are undeniably ugly, but hating them for it ain't going to fix them.