Homosexuality and the Bible

That's a good question, and it is an important one. The answer thankfully is pretty easy though. The way we avoid falling into Satan's snares is to remain firmly rooted in scripture. When we stray from scriptural truth, that is when we wind up in dangerous territory. Ephesians 6 tells us how the Bible is the "sword of the spirit," which means that it is the only offensive weapon that believers have to combat the devil with. He is literally immune to every other tactic. Of course, an extreme conspiracy theorist could perhaps put forth the ridiculous notion that the devil is really the one who inspired scripture and all that, but such a view does not hold up to scrutiny. The devil is extremely selfish. He is selfishness incarnate, and there is no way that he would've influenced scripture since the Bible aims to glorify God and minimize the selfish tendencies that plague this fallen world. For Satan to support the Bible would literally be counterproductive to every goal he has.

You ask what I have that other members of my faith don't have who arrive at the conclusion that homosexuality is a sin, and I honestly don't know how to answer that question. I certainly don't count myself as an inherently better Christian than them, though I believe they are misguided. However, I myself am far from perfect and absolutely need the grace of Jesus every day. We all sin differently, but I'm afraid we do all sin. As for my view of homosexuality, I can comfortably say that my view doesn't require long discourses to validate. It doesn't require the belief that human beings corrupted the Bible throughout history or somehow got divine messages wrong because they simply were not as educated as we are today. My view is not an easy view. It requires sacrifice and taking up my cross on a daily basis. Because of all these attributes, I am secure in my belief that homosexuality is indeed biblically a sin.

 

I don't entirely agree with this, and this is one of the main problems I have with your position.

Honestly, I think the traditional Christian stance you have taken sends an inherently harmful message to LGBT people, regardless of how lovingly one tries to convey this message. The message boils unavoidably down to this: To the 14 year old coming to terms with the fact that he/she is gay, you can never let yourself fall in love or have that type of intimate relationship with someone for your entire life, because your ability to fall in love and form that type of relationship is inherently tainted, shameful and sinful in a way that straight people's isn't.

That message, no matter how gently one tries to apply it, is a deeply harmful one for many vulnerable individuals if they allow that to really sink in and internalize it. It's no wonder young people who allow this to really sink in are frequently driven to depression and unfortunately often suicide attempts.

As an aside, this isn't the only message ever sent from traditional churches. The other big one is that people can't really be gay and if you are attracted to the same sex it merely means that your faith is not strong enough and you have not tried hard enough to not be gay (or bi or trans, etc). This viewpoint does great harm as well mainly because it is simply not based in reality, and is setting people up to inevitably fail no matter how strong their faith is.

 

Hmm... I think that at least as much wishful thinking needs to go into any of the three suggestions that you have made as would need to go into any interpretation that the Bible permits homosexuality. I think it's pretty clear that Jesus is talking about the fulfilment of the predictions he made in the Beatitudes.

Also, when does Jesus say that he doesn't know when the end will be? I only remember him telling others that they don't know.

He seems to be talking pretty clearly here, with no mention of an estimate. It's an interesting take to say that factual claims by Jesus may or may not have been accurate. If Paul had said that the end would be within a generation, or the narrator of the gospel, would that have been guided by the HS and inerrant, while if Jesus says it then it might be just a guess?

 

Curious Liaison, Matthew 24:36 says concerning the exact timing of Jesus' second coming: "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

So you see, the Son does not know when it will occur. So if Jesus made an estimate as to when He might return, it was only an estimate. Making an estimate that turns out to not be accurate is not a Sin, especially when the one making such an estimate fully admits that He isn't privy to the exact date. I think Jesus told the disciples the Second Coming could happen so soon because He didn't want them to become complacent in their faith. The reality is that Christ can return at any given time, so Christians should always live as if He is coming back today. That's the message I think Jesus was trying to convey, and I don't see what is biblically errant about it.

Aboutface, my heart truly goes out to young people struggling to reconcile their faith with homosexual impulses. I can honestly say I know how they feel. But the difficulty of that struggle doesn't negate scriptural truth. Jesus said things would be extremely difficult for his followers. The way of the cross is marked by suffering. When I was a teen struggling with my sexual identity, despair was always a threat that loomed on the horizon. But when it was most difficult, I leaned upon Christ, and He gave me reassurance that I was beautiful in His sight and that He had an incredible plan for my life. When times are toughest, we can either break or we can fall into our Savior's sustaining arms. I wonder how many suicides could've been averted had those taking their life turned to Christ and laid all their pain in his hands. Satan wants us to despair and give up. Jesus offers us hope and peace. But the reality of the human condition is that we are caught between these two forces, and we all too often choose the way of despair over the way of Grace.

 

Zane I'm genuinely glad that you've come to a better place personally. Still, I find the suggestion that others who were actually driven to despair, anguish and possibly self harm by the traditional Christian response to homesexuality just didn't try hard enough to find Jesus misguided and disturbing. It reeks of victim blaming to me.

I think if your theology is doing so much harm to people that it is literally driving them to suicide, it is about the strongest indication possible that there is something wrong with that theology.

 

But I don't see traditional biblical truth as pushing people to commit suicide. Traditional biblical truth saved me from such a fate. Traditional biblical truth talks about sin, yes, but it also talks about unconditional love, Grace, and peace. If someone only fixates on the sin part and doesn't take into account the one who can save us from such sin, then I can see how that would be problematic. For the record, I do not think it is fair to expect gay people to pray the gay away. Do I believe God can take it away? Sure, and there are many people out there who testify that He has. But if God allows that burden to continue to be carried, then it doesn't represent a lack of faith on the part of the gay person.

 

Zane I am sorry if asked this before but it's a good question. Why would God in his right mind create someone to be gay from birth and than say don't act on it or your going to hell. I believe my sexuality came from birth and why would God make me gay if it was gonna send me to hell. Zane it is not bible that causes people to commit suicide it is how people use the bible to control others or emotionally or physically abuse them. I just find how disturbing it is how quick you are to defend bigotry but it is very easy for you to deny our interpretations of the bible. You see how important it is to get to the truth of this so the lives of gay people can be made easier. Cause i believe i was made in God's image and my natural instincts began at birth the way God made me. I didn't chose this life. Believe me Zane if God condemned me for being gay would it be that easy for me just to change it.

 

Zane, like I said originally, this is a fundamental disagreement I have with you. I think the traditional Christian position on homsexuality is inherently harmful to LGBT people. Telling someone that their ability to form intimate relationships and fall in love is inherently broken and can never be used is harmful to those people, and simply trying to get people to not focus on that part too much doesn't really help imo. While many Christians could also stand to try to soften the blows they are inflicting, that won't ultimately fix things because the position itself is harmful to LGBT people.

Also, I don't see how forced lifelong celibacy is a solution so much as it is a last resort. Lifelong celibacy was never meant to be forced on anyone against their will, and yet this all the traditional church has to offer people who come to know that they are gay and that they can't change that. A few can manage that type of life healthily and even thrive (scripture is clear that it is a gift given to a few), but most can't. Most people long for that type of intimate connection with another person, and telling an entire class of people the size of a small country that they can never have that is, again, cruel and damaging to most of those people who internalize that message imo.

The theology has painted the traditional church into a corner where the only "solution" available is to propose forced lifelong celibacy on many people against their will. I would argue that there is clearly something wrong with this "solution" and it is another indicator that there is in fact something wrong with the theology that leaves that as the only possible response.

 

Well said. The main point is why would God create someone to be gay in his right mind and than order them to lead a life of celibacy. God doesn't give you more than you can handle most of the time and i do not think God wants you to live a life of unhappiness. I just find it kind of uneasy how easy it is for him to disagree with us but to defend religious bigotry.

 

They were Christian to an extent indeed, but they believed in (entire) separation between church and state actually:

5. “The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams

And so much more: Addicting Info – 35 Founding Father Quotes Conservative Christians Will Hate

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Aeolia, it surprises me too how religion is that important in America (but we both come from relatively secular countries, one of the most irreligious countries in the world). Moreover, atheism is on the rise in America, so the effects will of religion will likely diminish there. =)

 

That argument is well done and that's comes from a christian myself. We are a country of many religions and always will be so there always should be separation of church and state.

 

I do find it curious how it is that America has become/stayed so religious while Europe for the most part has stopped seriously caring about religion. Even though they have secularism built into the constitution, religion is very much a part of the US founding mythos. Is that just coincidence or is it the cause? Meanwhile the UK has a state religion and is (so it's often claimed) the only country in the world except for Iran that has spaces reserved for priests (or in our case bishops) in the legislature. And yet almost everyone ignores them.

 

I don't know if you were around on St Patrick's Day, but I wrote a post then about how it's quite likely that St Patrick was gay.

http://emptyclosets.com/forum/2550994-post1.html

Most of what we know about St Patrick we know from his own hand, and a lot of it was pretty weird and vague on details, which does invite scepticism, but even what we do know about him was pretty interesting. There was a lot more weirdness that I left out of that post because I thought it was turning into a lecture.

I'd be interested to know if anyone can think of any other saints that might have been gay. St Thomas Aquinas allegedly became asexual after receiving a vision in which two angels gave him a magic belt of chastity.

 

Here is a list of gay saints among others that may have been that i found on a lgbt site:Jesus in Love :: LGBT Saints: Queer Martyrs, Heroes, Spiritual & Religious Icons

 

Cheers! Although I suspect Zane might have something to say about that website...

 

I believe that we can learn a lot from religious texts, but I don't think that we should blindly follow them. I like to analyze and interpret the stories for myself. Religious texts were, after all, written by humans, and humans by nature are imperfect.

 

I just hope someday progressive christians like me become the majority in the christian world so we don't have to keep fighting stereotypes about our beliefs. There a movement is this country to create more glbt friendly churches so hopefully it will grow as time goes on.

 

Interesting post... and all the subsequent flame throwing that followed it.

I had the misfortune or fortune, depending on how you look at it, to work on a DVD series where various Bible versus where used to stave points that where being made. To cut a long story short, the verses where taken from various bibles and I had the job of trying to match them up to the bibles that where used for an onscreen text reference as those quoting the verses failed to mention which bibles they where quoting from.

I was totally bewildered when I realised that difarent bibles had diferent messages, the verses where not the same and could be and was interpreted difarently depending on what point whom ever was quoting the verse was trying to make. If ever there was a time my faith was tested and thrown into turmoil, that was surely it. I was forced to take a second look at everything I was taught growing up in a Christian community and that was and is the good thing that came from all of this.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I do believe that it would be wise to go back to the original texts as they definitely have been interpreted difarently in various bible interpretations over the years.

 

A very good point Ditz. I have avoided this thread so far, but your post really made good sense to me.

I also took a second look at my faith/religion for the same reason as you, but I found the whole process fascinating and affirming. To have room to question Biblical "truth" and find reason to doubt helped me to remain within, even while it persuaded others to leave.

This is where we run into a major problem, because no original text exists. We can only look at some antique, handwritten Bible scripts, but they are seriously lacking in authenticity and accuracy too. After all they are all translated copies of copies.

It was only the advent of mechanical printing that brought any degree of uniformity to the Bible, as we know it today. Prior to that the scribes and priests would produce their handwritten scripts, and a textual analysis of these would reveal very significant variations in meaning and syntax. Yet, it is from these antique manuscripts that our printed versions originate. It may be convenient to turn our face against these facts or claim that God inspired the scribes and priests to make expedient alterations, but I consider that a real stretch of the imagination. It's for this reason that we enter a minefield when we start talking about truth and inerrancy. Who's truth exactly? Who can be the final arbiter of Biblical innerancy? (not the church, that's for sure).

Learned theologians continue to argue about many of these points to this day, in the same way as we do in these threads, and just as we fail to agree, so do they.

The literal interpretation of passages and chapters from the Bible is hopelessly flawed, yet that is the standard set by so many (but not all) churches and religious institutions. It's not always been like this, but it is the trend of the last few hundred years. It's precisely this narrow and ill judged understanding that causes so much damage to LGBT people and we should pull together (whether we believe or not) and stand against foolish piety. Squabbling amongst ourselves erodes confidence and achieves nothing but further division within our community and that should be a matter of regret to us all.