At the time I grew up, the "norm" was the only mode you could see, no matter which direction you looked. There was no list of sexualities you could choose from such as you see people identifying themselves as here. There was just "straight", with varying degrees of intensity. Some guys seemed obsessed with "having a girl friend" and "going steady"; others (such as me) didn't have girl friends, just girls they were friendly with but never officially dated. You either eventually paired up with a woman to marry, set up house, had some kids, or became a "confirmed bachelor". It would be reasonable TODAY to assume that some of these bachelors were homosexual, but it was not the case so much back then, because most homosexuals were not out, if they wanted to stay alive, out of jail, and employed. You couldn't simply "date" another man, because almost everyone was in hiding, so there was no way you could have found anyone to date, even if you dared. There was no online way to make contact with people semi-clandestinly. IF you were in a large town, then there might be some sleazy bar somewhere on a side street that gay people went; there certainly weren't publicly visible support groups to wander over to and check other guys out. Where does this leave a young person without very strong gay feelings, who does not know what being sexually attracted to a woman is supposed to feel like? If he finds a nice woman that seems to be strongly attracted to him, and that fits into the "norm", then he just assumes that this is what love is supposed to be like, without knowing what he might be missing in intensity if some hot guy had actively pursued him and lead him into a homosexual relationship. He is tantalized by the idea of having sex of some kind and eager to fit in with his friends and their expectations, he is young and horny and easy to physically excite, he finds the woman is eager to offer him a nice slippery warm place to stimulate his hardware, and the next thing you know, he has two kids, a 3-bedroom house with a mortgage, and a used Buick station wagon. Then gradually, the thrills of having sex begin to get boring, maybe the wife gets indifferent to his unenthusiastic sex, or he realizes that it isn't doing much for him, so they gradually stop doing the deed and focus on saving for the kids college tuition, and he just cruises along NOT having sex for the most part. Meanwhile, the world starts changing. Men start coming out. People start talking about sexuality. Gay people get put on television shows. Kids start coming out in college, then high school, then middle school. At some point, it dawns on Papa why he never felt really excited about sex with Mama. Maybe he gets a divorce and starts looking for a boyfriend at age 43, wondering how in the world did he ever have sex with that woman, when he was really gay all the time. Or maybe he figures it out so late in life, that he just decides to "let it be", and not tip the apple cart over pointlessly. Then he finds this web site, and this post, and has a hard time explaining how it ever happened to him like it did, to a young man who has grown up in a totally different world, where gay men are out and proud and online and readily findable, and visible examples that he can identify with who are like himself, and available for dating and sexual interactions.
... and that's just a taste of the new book "My Life: The Autobiography of Yossarian". This is a limited print, so please forward me your pre-orders and I'll make sure you get a signed copy.
No, it's not an exact personal autobiography, but it is a pretty accurate description of "how gay-oriented men could end up marrying women and lead a straight life", in response to the misconception that ALL men are 100% gay or 100% straight. I know several people I went to high school with who went through this same general scenario. It is still likely to happen today to some people who are not certain or intense about their sexuality, but less likely than it was 50 years ago, because now, gay identities are around to be observed to compare yourself to, and people are at least talking about the issues and seeing a trend towards the civil rights of gay people being supported in some major cities and some progressive states. Some churches continue prejudiced attitudes which create conflicts and closeting for kids brought into them by their parents, but at least we are in a positive transition mode, for a change; the Presbyterians just changed their policies to recognize gay marriage, for example. If Yossarian ever writes an autobiography, it will only be sold for the Kindle, because I hope that official legal discrimination against homosexuals will be over by then, and people will not be lead into living straight lifestyles, when they aren't.
I attend a support group in NYC at the LGBT center, the Gay Married Men's Group, which is for men who are now or have in the past been in a "mixed orientation marriage." The facilitator of the group, who has a degree of wisdom under his belt, has a phrase he uses which helps. As it is common for some of the men to lament their errors, or confusions, misunderstandings, mistaken paths, etc., etc., He says, "at the time it made sense." Yes, at the time I married "it made sense." Of course at this moment, nothing makes sense to me
Doing or understanding things that make sense, or that are in accordance with "common sense" are often based on fallacies. One of the trickiest things to understand is that we can see exactly the same data and yet come to wildly different conclusions. An oft-cited example; that from our vantage point, the sun could very easily appear to revolve around the earth, our sense data could easily accommodate this idea, and so it was believed for centuries. This is the crux of the matter: it is what we believe that colours what we are able to see, if we could not possibly believe that we were anything but straight, we would simply not see that which did not accord with our belief.
WOW Yossarian! You hit the nail on the head. And yes, it did "make sense at the time", as the alternative was unthinkable to me. So unthinkable that it took 22 years to finally realize that my lack of passion and anger towards my wife was because not because she was difficult or didn't love me enough, but because I thought that if only she loved me better and treated me better, I would't have to think about men to have sex.:dry:
I have read in several different reports from Canada and the U.K. that 20% of authentically gay men are physically able to have sex with women. I don't know how they come up with a specific number like that, or how valid it is. But I am certain that some gay men are able to have sex with women, sometimes because they are so young and horny that they could have sex with anything, and sometimes with a lot of fantasy. But then, we know that lots of straight men have sex with men in prison. I'm sure that some straight men couldn't do that, but obviously some can and do.
Wow Yossarian. You described it perfectly. The word 'supposed' stands out to me. In a world where being gay was either not seen, or illegal, or sinful,.... It was not an option. I naturally assumed that i should have a girlfriend or wife. I did not date in school, or as a young adult. Looking at others, I would think, what is wrong with me. I did not equate that with being gay. Though I was self conscious - thinking that others would assume I was gay. Later, I met an extraordinary woman. We became best friends and fell in love, but did not have any sex until marriage. I had difficulties with sex from the beginning and it got more difficult and self conscious for me over time. But we genuinely enjoyed being with each other and supporting one another. And I thought that was what love was supposed to be. We have a child, and once he was born, that took up most of our spare time anyways. Looking back, her strong attraction to me made it possible. But deep inside, I felt defective. The feeling of being 'less than a man' became stronger. While we were outwardly happy, inwardly I was shutting down. That was when I began to become aware of my feelings towards men. I would go to the gym, and all of a sudden, would be turned on. (By that time I was wondering if it was even working any more) I began to have dreams and fantasies about men. Every once in a while, I would see the gay literature section in a bookstore, and was intensely curious, but also very afraid of what it might mean, and if someone would see. One time on a trip, I saw such a section. And decided to look. I read a coUple of chapters there at the store, but did not buy it, again because I was afraid. I became more attuned to others experiences of being gay. And when I would meet some one who was gay, I began asking questions and listening to their stories. It began to dawn on me, maybe I am not defective, or less than, maybe I am gay. Since then, I have allowed myself to have feelings. I came out to my wife a year ago, and family and friends after. It has changed so much in my life, especially as we are now separated and moving towards divorce. I am beginning to experience affection with a man, and it feels natural. There is no questioning inside- is this what it is supposed to feel like, or should I do this, or the constant nagging inside of how do you do this. It just comes naturally.
The "at the time it made sense" comment from the facilitator of the group was an attempt on his part to help many of the group members step away from their self-blame, guilt, shame, etc for perhaps "living a lie." It was meant as a way to frame the experience such that people could let go of the past and move on without feeling so miserable about it.
I dont want to sound mean but all of you felt something wrong was going why did you jump to marrige if something inside you is still not right? Though i dont blame any of you here in syria its just like that in some places gay people dont exist never come out but in damascus and some other big cities people are more open minded and educted but the very least accept gay people and some never heard of them On tv you cant know anything about gay people every romantic kissing sex or sexual words or homosexual acts are cut off from shows on Tv even stright sex scenes and making out are cut off Its not only the norm to get married a girl here but its a must before 30 or else something is wrong with you and people will start talking about it Thank god i found queer as folk this site and glee they taught me alot about LGBTQ+
Time weren't always what they are many places today. On top of that there's an awful lot of people that will "accept" things but have a very different reaction to it when it involves people in their lives ie: family, friends.
Like most things in life, feelings and emotions are not simple black and white. They ebb and flow as you interact with each other. You try to understand what you are feeling inside as the other person tries to understand what they are feeling inside. When you don't know what it feels like to have an intense mutual attraction to another person of the same sex, you can easily think that what you are feeling about a person of the opposite sex is what everyone who is dating and eventually marrying is feeling. You (back then) saw heterosexual relationships all around you; you did not see homosexual relationships; you did hear people talking about "queers" and "fags" and "homos" as though they were the scum of the earth. I know it is difficult TODAY, unless you are living in an Islamic country or African country where homo-hate is still rampant, to comprehend how different this country might have been, but you have us olde phartes here to explain this to you if you will listen to us. Being in a gay relationship, living together as though married, much less being actually married was not on our radar; GAYDAR had not even been invented as a term. We just knew we wanted to be sort of like everyone else, to get married, have a family who loved us, live the Ozzie & Harriet Good Life happily ever after, and that meant we had to find the right woman to make that happen. Nobody ever told us that we should be looking for the right man, because nobody, including ourselves, understood that that is who we actually needed.
I am curious to know what makes you think ALL older gay men have been or were attracted to women, much less married to them? I have never been attracted to women "that way", much less ever married one.
Nothing is black and white. I loved my wife then and I still do; I miss her all the time. We had many good years together.
I'm not even as old as some of you here nor have I been married and I don't find it that hard to empathize. I loved my girlfriend and still do. I simply wanted to make her happy, feel safe, and be loved. It's easy for the "reality distortion field" to take such obvious facts like your sexuality and make it seem like something that could be ignored, controlled, or changed.
Last night I watched the film "The Celluloid Closet." It's a documentary about homosexuality in the movies, based on the book of the same name by Vito Russo. While watching the embedded clips of old movies I'd seen in my youth, I suddenly realized how much of my own youthful homophobia was framed by Hollywood. Particularly traumatic was the final scene of the Elizabeth Taylor/Montgomery Clift vehicle "Suddenly, Last Summer," which I remember watching as a young teen. In that movie, the homosexual character, whose face is never seen, is literally consumed (i.e., eaten) by a mob of Spanish rent boys. Over the top? Yes, but amazingly influential for one such as me. Watch that movie and then ask me again why I chose not to come out.
wow, I just watched that yesterday as well. that, and Fabulous cover the same topic. and I had the same reaction as you did, that so much of my thinking was formed by Hollywood.
Hey, this too. A strong emotional and intellectual connection can go a very long way. Or at least it did for me. Even now I still go in little dips when I remember the good times we had. In many ways we were very good for each other. I'm glad we can still be good friends. Still jarring at times.
