I'm terrified of going to hell

I realize I'm fighting somewhat against the current on here, but here goes. All those Old Testament laws in Leviticus and other such books applied only to that specific era of history for the Israelites. They were a group of people very precariously held together and they were prone to sin and complete disregard for God at the drop of a hat. There are indeed some very harsh edicts in the Old Testament for these people, but it had to be that way in order to keep this wayward group of people on the straight and narrow because through this group the Messiah would ultimately come. If the Israelites turned away from God during an intensive time of testing in their history then Jesus may never have come. He would've had no people to come to, which would've been very bad. Like no salvation and Hell for everyone bad. So those harsh edicts that often called for death for even what we might consider rather minute offenses were necessary to protect the Israelites from the sinful and influential pagan cultures surrounding them. If just a tiny but of their sinful practices became assimilated into the Israelite camp, it could prove utterly disastrous.

However, since we no longer live in that era, those Old Testament edicts are largely obsolete. But obsolete is not the same as irrelevant. Those Scriptures were inspired by God and did once play an integral part in God's plans. Now, thankfully, we live in a new era of Grace ushered in by Jesus Christ. He paid the ultimate death penalty for our sins so that we would not have to. We could achieve forgiveness for our sins without paying the price that the pre-Christ world had to pay. So that verse regarding stoning homosexuals in Leviticus? It does not need to be followed anymore. It's time of relevance is past. However, the New Testament itself contains in multiple verses the reality that the God considers homosexual behavior sinful. These scriptures are in no way obsolete like their counterparts in the Old Testament, as they were penned after Christ's death and ascension.

By the way, I am not out to prove the Bible or provide people with a selfie of Jesus in Heaven so that people will believe. I have faith that these things are true. Faith was always an indispensable part of it. The evidence of the REALNESS of God is in my heart. But I can't quantify that into something that would satisfy non-believers. They can only find such proof on their own by making their own choices to either give Christ a chance to work in their lives or reject Him.

 

So do you suggest that we silence all women in churches everywhere like it is instructed in the New Testament? What are you going to say to someone who owns a slave that backs up Paul's encouragement of slavery in the New Testament? Should condoms be discontinued because it promotes premarital sex, something that is a hell sentence as well? And should we really be punishing the heterosexual pedophiles if the bible didn't even have an exclusive and in-depth set of verses condemning the practice? I mean 14 year old girls can get pregnant, no?

Perhaps, like I mentioned earlier, all of us gays should go and have penectomies performed on us to rid ourselves of the body part that causes us to "sin" that way we can have a better shot of getting into the pearly gates. And for the using the washroom dilemma, we could always sit to pee.

One thing that always disturbed me was the fact that god knows the final tally of the hell-bound sinners from the beginning, so why he created them when he knew their final choice is beyond me.

 

So in Deuteronomy 22:28-29, when God says that if a man rapes a virgin then they will be married and the rapist owes the girl's father 50 shekels, is that keeping rapists or women in check? If a man did that today, would he be sinning or just following the straight and narrow path?

If any sin warrants death in this life or the next, does even diverging from these rules require forgiveness? Must we repent of wearing mixed cloth?

 

Driftr, concerning women, Jesus was actually extraordinarily progressive when it came to how he treated women. He held nothing but the highest respect and admiration for his mother Mary. Speaking of Mary, she is largely considered the most important figure in biblical history apart from Christ himself. God used a woman (not a man) to make his grand play of bringing Christ into the world. Jesus had several women disciples who worshipped him equally right along there with the men, such as Mary Magdalene. The Bible teaches human beings about submission, a word that we are all naturally inclined to run away screaming from. It says a woman should submit to a man, but ONLY if that man himself submits to God. If not, then a woman should not submit. Jesus Himself submitted everything over to the Father. Submission teaches us to be obedient and put ourselves second to what God wants in our lives. So, yes, women AND men are taught to be submissive, albeit in slightly different ways. As for slavery, there is not one verse in the Bible where God commands people to institute slavery into the world. It arose naturally, and it was not God's original plan. But things like slavery, war, and disease entered Creation after the Fall of Man due to sin. God does not intend the Bible to be a manifesto designed to right every social ill in a world that is terminally ill and beyond repair to begin with. Scripture is meant to prepare hearts within the confines of this imperfect world to receive Christ so that eventually they will be ready when God establishes a new Heaven and a new Earth. Mentioning that slaves could even partake in worship services was incredibly revolutionary for that time. Far from denigrating slaves, such verses showed that in the eyes of God, slaves were just as equal in value as their masters.

As for premarital sex, it's biblically wrong. Period. It's pretty clear about that, so I don't think condoms are exactly what God had in mind when it came to sex. Granted, if someone is resolved to have premarital sex, it is a wise choice that he or she uses a condom to at least reduce the chance of negative consequences from the act. But the availability of condoms does not negate God's clear stance that sex should wait until marriage. As for penectomies, I think that's probably slightly dramatic. It is possible to resist temptation without going to such extremes. Driftr, you also said you found it disturbing that God knows in advance who is going to Heaven and who isn't. God exists outside of the confines of time and space, therefore He is able to see everything with a divine clarity that we humans can only imagine. But knowing how history unfolds is not the same as directly affecting it. Though a person may end up in Hell, God never wanted that individual to go there, and He did everything He could to make salvation available to them. He is willing that none should perish, but that all should have eternal life. But He honors Free Will too. Knowing in advance the choices humans will make does not mean that God made us make those choices. We are still totally responsible for where we spend eternity.

CuriousLiaison, you have to look at Deuteronomy 22 in context to understand it. For starters, it in no way condones rape. It forces the rapist to take responsibility and provide for the woman. Such verses would likely greatly deter rapists, don't you think? Would a rapist today hesitate more if he knew that he would legally be required to marry the woman he wronged? This verse was actually intended to protect the woman. During that historical period, a woman who was raped would be considered taboo by society. She would be viewed as somehow dirty, and no man would ever end up with her. So this verse forced a rapist to take responsibility for the woman and provide for her, especially financially as the verse points out. Sin is messy, and there is not always a neat and tidy way of dealing with the fallout from it. But no verse that either of you cited to me comes anywhere near to convincing me that the Bible is in the wrong.

 

you can be homosexual and go to heaven

god never said homosexuality is wrong

 

Yes, the Bible says it is a sin in multiple places, idiots555. It just does. In both the Old and New Testament.

 

I thought you said everything in bible needs to be taken seriously even the verse stoning homosexuals. If I can say that John 3:16 can save us from all our sins than how can you stoning homosexuals is not relevant anymore. Your picking and choosing also.

---------- Post added 10th Mar 2015 at 08:19 AM ----------

If Jesus was progressive about women than what is wrong about saying he could be progressive about homosexuals.

 

Dano, I'm not picking and choosing scriptures. I went into rather exhaustive detail up above about how the scriptures pertaining to the stoning of homosexuals applied only to a finite era of Israel's history. The scripture had its purpose, but not today as we are no longer in that era. Jesus came and paid the death penalty for all those sins, so He satisfied the requirements of the law in that way. Because He died for us, we no longer have to when we sin. Rather, we can attain forgiveness and have the precious gift of second chances. Being a woman was never considered a sin. Indulging in a gay lifestyle was. That's the difference there. Jesus may have been progressive about a lot of things, but read the Gospels and you will see Him about every other page telling the people He encountered to "Go and sin no more." Jesus was never progressive when it came to sin. He never promoted that.

 

Of course he never promoted sin. But the matter is he loved sinners more than their sin and therefore suffered and died for us and we are now saved. Jesus might of even been a homosexual himself. I know we disagree but hope when you die god tells you how foolish you have been to undermine his everlasting love and sacrifice. Because I know I cannot get anywhere else with you.

 

Dano, I do not disagree that the love Christ has for us is unfathomable, and His grace is amazing in every sense of the word. I know His Grace towards sinners far outweighs the punishment our sins merit. But just because we can technically live a lifestyle of sin and perhaps still be saved, does that mean we should? That sounds a lot to me like taking advantage of the Grace Christ offers us rather than being deeply humbled and respectful of it. Is it not better to live our lives trying to avoid sin in order to honor the God who gave so much to save us unworthy sinners? As for the possibility of Jesus being a homosexual, He wasn't because He abstained from sex in order to stay pure. Considering that Jesus was a fully human man, I have no doubt that He had more than his fair share of sexual urges and inclinations. But he denied those urges and chose the more difficult road of the cross. That example He set is exactly the one I am trying my very imperfect best to follow. How can you say such a mindset is so terribly foolish when it emulates Christ's?

I know you hope God calls me a fool when I get to Heaven, but I think you might be disappointed in that regard. Certainly, I will have plenty of shortcomings that I will be held accountable for, but I do not believe God will condemn me for living a celibate lifestyle in regards to my homosexual impulses. Why? Because He knows my heart. He knows that I give up that rather delightful part of my life with the intention of honoring Him and staying obedient to His Word. I believe at least in that area of my life, He will be pleased. More than anything else in this life, I long to one day hear the Savior I love so much say: "Well done, good and faithful servant." Everything else comes second to that.

 

I sorry if you misunderstood me. Of course God won't condemn you for living a celibate lifestye. I want to tell you a story of how I found Jesus. Growing up I was raised Catholic in a open minded Catholic household for the most part. I was scared of sin and often was depressed over the fact I might go to hell for being a homosexual. I was in a very dark place. I never felt so lost in my life and I realized later hating myself for being gay and having homosexual thoughts pushed me farther away from God than it pushed me closer.

You see Zane faith in God is not only a biblical journey it is a spiritual journey. Meaning Ministers and biblical scholars believe God is still speaking to us through our hearts and guiding us on the right path. It didn't just end at the bible.

When I say Christ died for our sins I don't mean to say we should take advantage of what Christ did. It doesn't mean we should commit murder, theft, rape and so on. But it does define Christ's love for us and his understanding of us.

About the bible how can you say your bible is a accurate one. There are so many different versions, texts and wordings. The original bible was not even written in English and I heard many bible scholars translate these texts finding a different meaning. People did not speak English in those days Jesus did not even speak in English.

Another thing to think about is who would Christ stand with today if he came to earth. Would he stand by those who deny their sins and continue to condemn others or would he lead the sinners who believe in prayer and help guide them on their spiritual journey.

Overall is it better to be a sinner who admits their sins and has a love for the gospel than a person who preaches the gospel and denies their sins.

I mean well Zane. I understand the reality of what is in the bible and the the different interpretations. I don't say this stuff because I am trying to deny it or pretend it is not there. I am saying this because i have personal relationship with Jesus and he speaks to me spiritually every day. God Bless you on this faith journey we all go through.

 

Dano, though we continually disagree on certain things, I understand that you mean well by what you say. So just understand that I don't take offense to any of it, and I pray you don't take offense to my words. You essentially said the Bible is not all there is to consider when it comes to following God. Certainly, there is more to the Christian life than just reading the Bible. But I also believe that the Bible should never be underestimated either. The Gospel of John said that "the Word was God." Meaning that God Himself is equated with Holy Scripture. That is why I cannot in good conscience look at the Bible and think that any aspect of it is corrupt or off base. That would imply that God is imperfect and incapable of getting his message to mankind down in a correct manner. Yes, there are different translations, and I have used many of them. The wording may be different, Dano, but the message is always the same. I don't see different translations producing entirely different messages. I believe the Holy Spirit uses different translations for different purposes.

You ask if it is better to be a sinner who admits his sins and loves the message of the gospel, or is it better to be someone who denies his sins but preaches the Gospel anyway. Certainly, the former option is better. But I don't see what that has to do with what we are talking about. Have I given you the impression that I deny having sinned? Have you seen me claim to be perfect? I don't think so. I fully admit I am a sinner in need of Grace, but I also see value in at least trying to avoid the pitfalls of Sin. If we feel we are being led down a path that takes us in conflict with scripture, I think we need to question these feelings and discern whether or not they are of God. Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light, and that false light he offers can deceive many people. I firmly believe God provided the Bible as a means of discerning the truth from the lies. This is why it is referred to as "the Sword of the Spirit" in Ephesians. The Bible is not just an inspiring book. It is our greatest weapon against the Enemy, and underestimating its value strips ourselves of a valuable resource to use against the the evil influence of Sin that comes against us.

 

to the OP, there are a lot of things you or i may go to hell for being gay/bi isnt one of them.

 

No of course not. I believe you are a confessed sinner. I was just making a point. I am gonna tell you a story on how I became a non-catholic and became a born again believer in Christ.

One night I came home work and all the sudden I was thinking of my faith and how tired I was of church and religion. There were many instances in my life where I almost lost faith in God and that night in the Spring of 2013 I went for walk in the dark. I don't know what I was searching for or why i did it. I just keep walking alone in the dark. But than I felt a presence within me. I than heard a voice telling how loved I am and that he is always with me. The presence spoke from the heart telling me to have faith in him and all things will work out for the best. He told me my homosexual behavior and the way I was born is not important to him and that my faith in him is all that matters. He also told me from the heart no church can lead the way and I am the only one that can find the truth. I was near tears and felt Christ guiding me and I said a prayer proclaiming my newfound faith in him. My heart felt stronger after that experience and I never set foot in a church again which is what christ asked of me. Jesus puts us all on a journey and I knew in my heart what that journey was.

Most people won't believe that Christ spoke to me through the heart but he did. I pray everyday and try my best to spread God's word. I try to guide people to Jesus as much as I can.

 

Apologies if I misunderstand your meaning, and this now seems patronising, but condone doesn't mean endorse. It means grudgingly permit. And I think the verse does that.

I don't know how much it would make a rapist hesitate. I don't know the value of 50 shekels or whether a wife was a net financial burden. The OT does not forbid multiple wives. Either way, it treats a woman as a chattel. It suggests that the crime is being committed against the girl's father in his position as her keeper. There is no requirement to keep the woman well. She has to live with her rapist. Whereas if she is engaged and is raped in a city she gets stoned to death (on the grounds that she must have been able to cry out). Again the implication is that she is a spoiled chattel.

Bear in mind that this is a book that says if a man sleeps with a woman who is menstruating they are both to be exiled. That seems to me to be a greater disincentive.

---------- Post added 10th Mar 2015 at 07:29 PM ----------

Sorry, I'm siding with Zane here. This is covered by the "Let he who is without sin" thing. In the other thread (we all know the one) I asked where Paul derived the authority to abrogate the OT law, but I have tried to stay clear of the fact that even without that, we have been told not to actually carry it out.

 

Thanks for sharing that information. I understand that better now.

---------- Post added 10th Mar 2015 at 11:57 AM ----------

Zane just out of curiosity what type of bible do you read? There is so many different bibles out here so I was just wondering.

 

A key phrase you used was "unrepenting homosexuals". In my belief, and the belief of my non-denominational Christian church, God love all who believe in Him, without exceptions. While parts of the Old Testiment, like Leviticus, say that homosexuality is a sin, Christ changed that and preached messages of love for thy neighbor. As long as you are devoted to God, I see no reason for Him to not show His love to you, regardless of your sexuality. I sincerely hope this helped you out.

 

I am sorry to hear this. It is totally your decision. But I just want to know the stuff I said is not to mislead or confuse you. It was from a true believer's heart and soul and I meant every word of it. I am not gonna help you find a forum that I know could be self destructive to your own well being. Sorry I just can't do it. My spirit cannot allow such a thing. God Bless you and I hope the best for you. I am sorry for any confusion or frustration we may of caused you on this forum I know all the members on here were only speaking from their hearts and minds and truly doing it because they care.