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How obsession with masculinity is destroying young men

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by clockworkfox, Jan 29, 2015.

  1. clockworkfox

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  2. Tai

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    The article hits on a lot of important points. I definitely think that boys and men shouldn't be ridiculed for showing femininity. I have a feminine side and a masculine side, but on the gender spectrum I'm so close to the center that I'm known as a masculine girl (while really, I feel like a feminine boy). Whichever I am, I'm right on the edge, and not afraid to show my femininity sometimes.
     
  3. BradThePug

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    I agree. We see this in the gay community as well. We see it with terms like "straight acting" and "gay acting". We also see it in the sense of some men not wanting to date more feminine men.

    Even within the transgender community, there is some stigma surrounding more feminine transmen. Some get comments about not passing, and other people will outright tell them to not transition. It's annoying, and sad to see in the community.
     
  4. crazycat

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    This is a huge subject within feminist study and discussion. From my experience it hurts trans men and gay men the hardest. There's a lot of pressure on gay men to not 'act to gay' which basically means feminine. When a straight guy acts feminine, he's called either a bitch, a pussy, or a fag. Basically, he's being compared to either a woman or a gay man, and that in our society is the worst thing a man can be.

    Trans men are under a huge amount of pressure to be as masculine as possible. Because many trans men still retain some feminine features, from my experience it's not uncommon to overcompensate by being hyper macho. Trans men also are far more self conscious about lacking masculine traits or having feminine ones due to the pressure of passing.

    This also has an effect on non-binary people. In the non-binary community it's not unusual to see masculinity as somehow less gendered than femininity. There's a sort of pressure on DFAB non-binary people to try to be very masculine, otherwise we're just women. I can't identity as more of a guy one day but wear a dress, but I can identify as more of a women and wear men's clothes and people don't think twice, because for some weird reason, wearing feminine clothes in our society outright makes one a woman, but wearing men's clothes is just kinda neutral. DMAB people are often times afraid to express any sort of femininity for fear of harassment. There is a lot of pressure on DMAB people to still present more masculine in many situations. I'm not DMAB myself and I haven't heard too much from DMAB non-binary people on how these issues effect them, so I can't go into too much detail.
     
  5. GrumpyOldLady

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    I think overly rigid gender roles hurt everyone. I wish everyone could feel free to be themselves. Where I live now is in many ways far less rigid or at least less obsessed than the place where I grew up, and I think it makes a big difference.
     
  6. crazycat

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    Yeah the US has this huge obsession with masculinity. And warfare.
     
  7. Michael

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    There is a lot of men out there with his idea of masculinity being "I know I'm a man 'cause I'm not a woman", translation being "I'm strong like my mates 'cause I know I'm not weak like them"

    Strenght comes from within, not from gender, they fail at understanding this simple little thing.

    About the transmen trying to compensate by acting "macho", I feel as sorry for them as I feel sorry for men who are trapped by the wrong thinking patterns.

    To acknowledge your own feminine side, regardless of your gender, is not only to acknowledge "vulnerability" or "being sensitive". Women are strong as well.

    It's a funny thing that the "macho thinking" gives women some credit : Being "evil". To be evil you need first to be intelligent enough.
     
  8. clockworkfox

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    Women are strong. Our culture fails to recognise or value the strength of women, just as much if not even more so, than they fail to recognise the sensitivity or vulnerability of men. And that's where a lot of this problem comes from. Traditional gender roles are dehumanizing no matter what gender you are. They effect everyone negatively.

    As a transguy, I embrace my femininity, and realise that it doesn't define me or limit me to being a woman, nor does it make me "weak" or "lesser" in any way. Feminine traits are human traits, just as much as masculine traits are. We all have some of both, and there's nothing wrong with that. We really need to acknowledge that as a society. But what we really need to recognise, more than that, is that a woman with a lot of prominent masculine traits is no less a woman, and a man with a lot of prominent feminine traits is no less a man, because this idea of stereotypically gendered traits is at its core a flawed one.

    (Also all of this really sucks for nonbinary people, but I think that's evident enough since the concept of masculine and feminine traits and stereotypical behaviors are elements of a binary structure. The fact that these things so negatively effect the very people that do fit into a binary structure, though, that's a sign we need a cultural attitude shift in our views of women, our ideas about men, and the internalized misogyny that seems to permeate the system.)
     
  9. Stacy in MA

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    There are plenty of wonderful men that I like/love as individuals, but I find myself becoming increasingly really uncomfortable being identified with men as a group. Although I feel in many ways we are making strides as society in how we treat one other, I am absolutely dismayed by the increase in the amount and degree of hostility displayed towards women as a group. Obviously it is not everyone - but it does seem like a trend. To be fair, as I start identifying more closely with women, perhaps I am just now noticing things that were always there, but I don't think that is completely the case. I feel like men as a group are starting to feel their preferred position threatened and are lashing out, sometimes violently, in response. It really is scary.

    </armchair psychologist>
     
  10. crazycat

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    (I'm going to go into this huge....Thing here. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to imply in anyway men don't face problems, quite the opposite actually. This is just a theoretical analysis as to why these problems exist in the first place)

    You might be noticing things that were already there. It's the same with things like street harassment, cis men don't typically notice these things until they're shoved in their face, one way or another. Honestly there have been men saying that women are trying to dominate society since suffrage. If you look into some fairly basic sociological theory, this is a part of the conflict theory. The theory goes that groups that have more societal power want to keep their position in society, and whether consciously or subconsciously are fearful of marginalized groups becoming more equal to them because they fear that they might loose their power in society. This theory ties heavily into analyzing our media. Our media makes women, PoC, LGBTA individuals, ext. look like they're trying to get preferential treatment, and uses extremists to prove this true, while at the same time ignoring prevalent issues faced by these groups and what the actual leaders, scholars, and experts in these social movements actually say and want.

    There is also a lot to be said for how our culture views femininity as inherently weaker and inferior. While the strict standard of masculinity mostly hurts men, women are also under some degree of pressure in many industries to be 'better than most woman'. In the context of US society, having stereotypical male traits is seen as better than female ones. Being into football is seen as less frivolous than being into fashion, for example. Many girls often hear "You're not like most girls." which, when elaborated on, usually amounts to, "You aren't catty, vain, or vapid." In our culture, in order to be taken seriously many women feel the need to forgo traditionally feminine things. This doesn't mean there is anything wrong with someone who identifies as female who does not like feminine things to start with, but a lot of DFAB people like me will have had at least one point in their lives where they "Aren't like the other girls" and "I'm more like a guy because I'm smart and don't care if I chip a nail!" For a DFAB person to act more like a man is seen as an attempt to better her position in society. For a DMAB person to act more like a woman is seen as making himself inferior. There's a reason why transmen face less violence than transwomen. There's a reason why transwomen are seen as a joke. There's a reason when young girls are 'tomboys' it's seen as a temporary phase and as cute, where as a boy who's into girly things needs to be forced to act more like a boy.

    I know I'm going on like a huge rant now that's only marginally on the original topic, but this is an important and fascinating aspect of sociological and feminist study. Even one of the worst things men face, the strict standard of masculinity, is really all about hating everything our society associates with women.

    </keyboard sociologist>
     
  11. DarkWolf

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    I hate the fact that seems like society over the many decades has become usually accepting of women being masculine however it is about as accepting of femininity in males as it was since the beginning. People still associate femininity with weakness and I never understood it. Women can be powerful, people of all sorts can be powerful in nail polish and a flowery dress but society never sees that.

    And if a young boy shows that he is feminine society either says "that's wrong, that's showing weakness" or "he's gay or not really a boy". And the whole masculinity thing has become such a hazard because society keeps training men to just hide away those feelings because apparently you aren't suppose to care. Society teaching men that they should only want sex not love is one reason why abusive is such a problem.

    As a transman, I feel like I have gone from this world where it was okay if I did anything to a world where I'm invalidated as being a man if I show any femininity. It's simply ridiculous.
     
  12. clockworkfox

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    It is ridiculous. There's no reason a man, cis or trans, shouldn't be able to do anything he likes that's regarded as feminine.

    I tone it down now because I'm pre-everything, but once I'm passable?? I'll put on a dress, who gives a shit? I'm all for pushing the idea that femininity =/= weakness. This is the idea we need to embrace socially if we want men to respect women, women to respect each other (i.e. - not finding comfort in the idea that they're "not like the other girls" like it gives them a boost up in society when they're "better" than each other), and men to be fucking human, and embrace their humanity in all its flavors, even those "feminine" parts of them they try to suppress and stamp out.
     
  13. crazycat

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    ^^^^^^^
     
  14. anonym

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    I think I might be obsessed with masculinity. I abhor any feminine traits about myself. Also, if for instance I try on a men's peacoat or floral shirt, I feel like I'm in drag. I Wish I could be more comfortable with feminity.
     
  15. antibinary

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    This basically.
     
  16. warholwendy

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    I stopped GAFfing about femininity and masculinity and whatever a long time ago. I dress and act how I want to act not how it would make me seem masculine or feminine.
     
  17. clockworkfox

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    A healthy mindset. I salute you. :eusa_clap
     
  18. clockworkfox

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    It's easy for cis men to become obsessed with masculinity, and even easier for trans men, since we have to go through so many hurdles to express our masculinity. I think a lot of it has to do with security/insecurity - I've noticed as I've become more secure in my gender identity, the more I've been able to embrace my "feminine" traits. For years growing up, I fought them, but now that I'm comfortable saying I'm a guy, and I'm taking the steps to start physically transitioning, I don't give a fuck if I'm feminine.

    I see it like this - we all have both feminine traits and masculine ones. All of us, from the biggest divas to the burliest bikers. Humans subscribe gender to everything. It's one of those things we're really good at. But gender is a human construct, I think. We feel gender because it matters to us for some reason. But is a color, or an emotional response, or an object actually feminine or masculine? I don't think so. For years, pink was the most masculine color - now it's the most feminine. Human's projection of gender onto non-human things is something that's constant, but the way we do it shifts over time and across cultures. Nothing is inherently masculine or feminine really. We just form these associations ourselves based on cultural and social cues, which we pick up on from a young age and have reinforced in various ways throughout our lifetimes.

    Basically - the idea of non-human things posessing gender is kind of a crock of shit. What makes gender is in our heads and in our hearts, and that's all that really matters.

    The problem, as I see it, is that fem-phobia is completely out of control. Why, for example, are emotions feminine? Emotions are human, we all experience the full range of human emotions during our lifetimes. As guys, we need to stop being afraid of the feminine, because we're at a point where we're denying ourselves (and other guys, through reinforcement of the idea that emotions are feminine) the ability to be fucking human beings because we don't want to lose our sense of masculinity.
     
  19. anonym

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    Do you think gender could be purely a social construct?
     
  20. clockworkfox

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    That's hard to answer. I think many people feel their gender, some more strongly than others. But I think the associations we form with gender, those are purely social. It's important not to get lost in that. Your gender doesn't lie in what clothes you wear, or what activities you prefer, or what media you like. If I put on a dress right now, and had a tea party with cucumber sandwiches, I'd still be a guy, just a guy in a dress eating cucumber sandwiches.