To address the previous persons post: 1) Denver CO is a major city nearby. I do not live in Denver or Colorado. When I created the account it asked me to put the nearest big city which I did. I am not going to list the true city or state I am in for obvious reasons but nedless to say it is legal to fire someone for being gay. I am sure of that because the person who was fired tried to complain to the state and they rejected his complaint. Our board is very conservative and joked to another executive that he was a q**** when he said something gay as a joke once. They then proceeded to threaten to fire him as a joke. The action I took was in compliance with my companys policies as codified in our employee hand book. 2) I am not saying everyone hates gays nor am I trying to criticise anyone for being so. I am simply saying my beliefs as they apply to my situation. As I have said numerous times I am not pushing my agenda or beliefs. I am just trying to get advice and feedback on my own situation... I am not trying to troll or make anyone upset. Much of the advice given here has been helpful....
Anyway, seeing that the thing that worries you the most is continuing your linage, hiring a surrogate would't be difficult with the money you make. It is in my understanding that it is legal in USA. The child would be biologically yours. As for your concerns regarding the importance of having a mother and a father, I know quite a few people who were raised only by one of the parents. The majority of them are nice and well rounded people. I know delincuents and social waste raised by a mother and a father in an apparently perfect family. My point is that there is no proof that having a mother and a father is better that having two fathers or two mothers. There are studies on that (unless, that again, you prefer to look up conservative or religious sources) instead of seeing both sides of the coin. yes, the image of a man and a woman with kids in front a white-picked-fence house is omnipresent and conveys the "perfect family", but there isn't any reason to believe that this family unit is going to raise children better than others. I was raised by my parents and I love them but, sincerely, I would prefer to be raised by other people/ familiar structure if my father, who is supposed to love me and support me,turns out to be an enemey who hates me and disowns me just because I am happy with being myself.
Because I came to realize that NOT telling my family was causing them more problems than actually TELLING them would. But then again, my family doesn't condone bullying and cruelty. And realistically, ridiculing and firing people because they don't fit into your own view of what they should be IS bullying, and mighty damn un-Christian behavior at that. Given your attitudes, I can see why you are struggling with your "same-sex attraction"--you're probably afraid of being treated with the same level of judgment and mean-spiritedness that was shown to the employee who was fired. Well, guess what? There ARE people who are accepting and kind to gays. You CAN come out, even in your 50's as I did, and be accepted by friends and family (including teenage kids, in my case). You CAN bring value to society without producing a bloodline. My long-time boss was gay and childless, and was so greatly loved and respected by friends, family and co-workers that when he was sidelined by cancer, I've never seen such an outpouring of prayer, care and support. Simply because he was such a wonderful person, and his orientation was irrelevant to the people whose lives he touched. I hurt my wife by coming out, true, but that's because I should have figured things out before I married her instead of 20 years after. I actually have a closer relationship with my teenage daughters since I told them I was gay, because I'm not holding things back and we can be much more open and honest with them. My parents are long dead, but my mother had her suspicions about my orientation 30 years ago and made it clear she would be supportive. She died, sadly, long before I was ready to deal with it myself. And my dad surprised me numerous times before his death with how gay-friendly he was. I had a lot more "serious issues" in the closet than I have had since I started coming out. Since facing the fact that I'm gay, I'm less depressed, less withdrawn, more self-confident and more caring of others. You may feel differently, but I don't see that as a bad thing in the least.
Well OP, i don't think there is much more to be said here. There is nothing wrong on being gay, as we already said here numerous times. Scientifically speaking, it is something completely normal, so you will have a hard time using science to justify your beliefs about this. By what you described, you may be bisexual or gay (as you already even acted upon it), and, to me, you are in denial and searching for ways to avoid admitting this to yourself. We would be more than happy to help you if you are questioning your orientation, but, in my opinion, there isn't much more to be said about your first questions. No one can tell you what your orientation is, because only you know how are you feeling about your attractions. But if you want to be honest to yourself, you need to stop worrying about others judgement and think freely and without fear about yourself. You don't need to do anything about it for now, but, if you want advice, you need to be willing to be honest to your own mind. If in the end you realize you are straight (possible, but I doubt it, based on what you said) at least rethink your actions. It is shameful to judge someone because they have a different orientation.
If I may chime in. I'm a man and have been with a girl for more than 6 years. I can say I am quite blessed with my life, I had good grades in university and am starting a career that I love. One thing, however, was on my mind these last few years : my orientation. I realised I'm attracted to men more than women. This hit me when, one day, I was at the mall with my girlfriend, walking and holding her hand. But when we crossed other people, I realized I was eyeing boys more than girls. Could you imagine that? Walking with your girlfriend in a public space, but looking at the boys you cross more than the girls? Quite ironic. The doubt on my orientation then intensified to the point I had to experiment with a man, and I did. I loved it so much. But always feeling this incertitude inside you, being with a woman but knowing you'd be better with a man, is quite daunting. The more the time passed, the less at ease I was with myself and with her, which also impacted my confidence and interactions with friends and family and, ultimately, everything in my life. One day, I had to tell her. She was not happy anymore in our relation and so was I. Not really being attracted to females, I would have never been able offer her the great life she deserved. So I told her. I was very hard in the beginning, we were both extremely sad. Eventually, she accepted. Then I came out to my family. Theyalso took it hard in the beginning. But they came to accept who I was. What can I tell you from my limited experience? That having a decent paying job you love is an essential element of happiness. But, being comfortable with who you are and being honest to yourself and the ones around you is paramount to everything else to find happiness. OP, I wish, someday, you'll find this peace and happiness. The path may be hard, and society's perception not always flattering, but once you go through this remains the bliss. Because since I have come out, life has never been better. I am happy, comfortable with myself, people at work noticed how much more of a confident person I am now and how my interactions with others have tremendously improved. I've never been closer to my family and friends than these past few weeks. If you choose to live a life of lies, being with a wife and kids all while being attracted to men, it's your choice. But you have to think about them too and the fact you'll always live hiding something from them. And trust me, it may be easy in the beginning, but it eventually becomes a mental torture. Escaping the reality will hurt others around you - probably way more than if you had been honest. I think it is plain stupid to start an heterosexual family while being attracted to other men. How will you be loyal to your wife? Will you have intercourse with other men while being married to her? If not, how will you repress these pulsions? What if she finds out? You imagine the scandal? What would your kids think? To again answer your question of "why would someone?" : because it's worth it, despite a few hard moments along the way. How can you be true and authentic to others if you are not true to yourself in the first place? EDIT : let me quote your original post : Sorry to tell you this, friend, but these depression and miserability feelings will only intensifie as life goes on. And the whole will negatively poison every aspect of your life. Having a wife and kids to meet the expecations of others will certainly not improve these sad feelings you currently experience.
Wreckless made the absolutely crucial point that you are willing to involve others (a wife, kids) in your lie. Forget religion, forget integrity if you must, but you can't ignore that this ultimately becomes a deeply moral question. Knowing that you prefer men and marrying a woman anyway...there is no forgiving that.
So, looking at your first couple posts again and various thoughts... Unless you've grown up in a bunker, you have to know that most Americans couldn't care less about your bloodline. Insofar as they do care, they will consider what your ancestors, and by extension yourself, accomplished in life. Do you think that they would consider your father's actions (marrying your mother just because he thought she'd produce good looking kids, throwing her away to marry someone younger, basically treating other human beings as something little better than show ponies) or your actions (taking away someone's livelihood because they are gay) to be accomplishments to be proud of? If you do think these are things to be proud of, I would ask if you would then brag about them at a national Democratic political event? What do you think admitting these actions would do to your family's political connections? Do you think being openly gay is going to hurt you in today's Democratic Party? If your prestige and good name are built on lies, then are they really real to begin with? I mentioned I work for a Fortune 500 company. Our revenues are larger than the GDP of a lot of countries. And we have a nondiscrimination policy that includes orientation and provide same sex domestic partner benefits. As part of my job, I see the employee policies of our clients (we consider 10,000 employees to be a small client). Nearly all of them have similar nondiscrimination policies. Many of the companies could probably buy and sell your employer out of their petty cash fund and are known around the world. They believe it is good business and a decent thing to do to have openly gay people working for them. Why, as a business person, don't you? If you are really as good at your job as you imply, then why not change jobs and possibly relocate to an employer and location where your orientation isn't an issue? If you can be successful where you are now, surely you can be successful somewhere else. You mention religion...several denominations are now quite accepting of gay people. Perhaps you should talk to some of their representatives about being a gay Christian? There are quite a number of LGBT Christians you know. You mention disowning a hypothetical gay son. So, the only value your child, a child you presumably would see being born, would hold in your arms, would protect, would watch grow up, would take pride in his accomplishments and character as a person...all that you would just casually toss aside because he feels the same urges and needs you do? Because he has the capacity to fall in love with a man? Just a thought, but maybe the love you would feel for your son, the love you could one day feel for a man yourself, the end of the depression you feel now as you try to fight against your own nature...is worth just a bit more (or a LOT more) than some lineage that no one else cares about, or an illusion of prestige that is built on hiding the truth from everyone. Todd
My families bloodline dies with me. It dies with me because I am gay. It's not about selfishness on my part. I can't change who I am. I simply cannot be anything or anyone else. People can frown upon me for being gay if they want to, they can ostracise me and tell me I'm wrong, or disordered, but their harsh and offensive words will not change the ultimate reality of who I am. Would I even dream of taking a wife to procreate with, knowing how I feel, just to maintain the said bloodline? Absolutely not. What sort of miserable, self serving pig of a man would that make me? I'm not confused about my feelings, I am absolutely certain that I am gay, so I would be entering into a sham marriage, doomed to fail. Moreover, I couldn't stand at the altar of a church, facing my future wife and "in the presence of Almighty God" to take the vows after hearing the Priest utter these words: It's almost intended to frighten you. There comes a point where you need to face the reality of who you are and what you might be contemplating and those words are intended to shake you into that reality. Could you, in all sincerity take a wife and father children with her in a sham marriage? Could you take the vows and effectively lie before God? I couldn't. I would be entering into a destructive contract, in full and perfect knowledge of my intentions. Life isn't just about procreation and carrying on a bloodline. It's about something much deeper.. something I've had to face myself. I challenge you to do the same.
To the op Please read Patricuk post a few times.His last paragraph means a lot,a challenge myself and many more have faced and conquered.I also challenge you to do the same. I would also like to add my opinion on your dreams. You admit to being well off,this should prove that being rich alone,does not bring happiness. Intending to enter into a sham/fake wedding to carry on a blood line is about the lowest thing you could do morally and be totally unfair to any potential wife. Trying to live up to your parents expectations is forcing you into a life of lies and depression. Is it really worth it? You come across as a religious person.Some one who is willing to sack a person who just like himself is gay.Someone who lies his way out of every situation,even to the point of being homophobic.Someone who wants to enter into a fake marriage doomed to fail.Well non of this sounds like you have much faith to me. You are GAY admit it ,own it,come out,be proud and enjoy it.
Also OP is young and educated. He is making good money, so probably he could afford a surrogate contract or adoption, and also has the advantage that Colorado is a quite liberal state, so...is not as if getting married to a woman would be the only option to have his own family. But I agree with you that getting into a sham marriage lying about your sexuality would be among the worse thing that you could do to a partner. 50 or 40 years ago there was no option becuase being gay was illegal, but today, there is no excuse to do that while living in a western country.
Was thinking about this today and I think I finally figured out why your situation bothers me so much. Basically, this... Boiled down to basics, what this is saying is that your family (or at least your dad who apparently instilled these directives into you) feels you have no value as a person except insofar as you can expand the wealth and power of your family. Your only value in existence is to rack up more dollars in the bank account, more social connections to help gain power, and somewhere in there produce a kid whose sole and only value in life is their ability to continue the process after you eventually drop dead. Apparently we're not even talking about some sort of 'working for a cause' type thing - the only goal is a purely selfish one. Your happiness is unimportant, your feelings of depression and being miserable are unimportant, everything is unimportant except doing what 'the family' wants. To me, treating anyone this way is the real abomination. Part of me wants to hope that at least some of this is just a product of not having the complete picture where your family is concerned, limited as it is by what you've described. Part of me wants to hope that at least some of what you describe owes more to feeling miserable or trapped by your families expectations or your interpretation of them. But regardless of whether what you describe is totally 100% true or 'only' your interpretation of things - it is making you miserable and that's something you need to do something about. The best solution being to accept yourself and learn to love yourself as you are, not as others might wish you to be. Somewhere in there it's even possible you could find someone who will love you for you (the real you) as well. I hope you can come to accept yourself and understand that it's perfectly possible to be happy, accepted, and even loved as a gay man, regardless of what you may think now. Todd
Thanks for your feedback and comments, again, they are all very helpful. First, I think I heard a comment about being in Denver, Colorado, but as I said before, I'm not--that's just a major city that is near me. I am in a neighboring state that is very conservative. I guess it's hard for most people to understand, but higher class families--especially very wealthy and established ones--put their money, class, wealth, prestige, and image first before anything else. Even ones who are Democrats. I guarantee you, all of these Democratic politicians, such as the Kennedys, if they had a gay child, would be putting him or her in a similar position despite saying they are for gay marriage. It's OK as long as it doesn't affect their family. High society is fake and built on lies. My parent's marriage was not built on love, but rather on mutual wants--my father for genetics and my mother because she wanted to live a life of luxury and have financial security. That is what I assume any future marriage I would have would be about. Our family is not built on love or emotions, it's built on other things than that. It's built on the continuation of our image (false or real is not relevant) and family that has been instilled in me for being important, not my own happiness. Sacrificing myself for a family legacy. Right or wrong, messed up or not, it's my reality and there isn't anything I can do about it. It is not my interpretation, it is fact. Another answer to a previous point, I am religious in the sense I believe in God. But that's not a driving factor in my opinions on homosexuality. One of the other posters mentioned that I have been instilled to see nothing more than my worth as a human being as anything other than in monetary value. That's kind of correct in a sense. I see my value as simply a continuation of my family line and continuation of hundreds of years of people's sacrifice, hard work, and probably misery in maintaining what they built. I know everyone keeps talking about love, but that is not something I truly experience. No one really loves me, so there is no point in worrying about that. I do not have a girlfriend or a boyfriend. As I said I have been in love once, but was very badly let down/hurt. I guess I don't see the point in my case in living a life that may make me happier. Most wealthy people are miserable anyway. I am miserable, and plan on remaining that way. As far as me being "despicable" if I decided to marry and lie to my future wife. I do not plan on lying to her. I am not going to marry her because I lie and tell her I love her; like my parents, she would marry me solely for prestige, money, and I would marry her for genetics. I would probably cheat on her here and there, but she would probably do the same, and neither of us would care. I don't plan on pretending to be some prince charming to my future wife, rather I plan on it being merely a business arrangement, and us both understanding that. How does that make me despicable for doing that? These comments have helped me to understand why people reveal these things, so I thank you all for that. In my case, however, after contemplating all of the details, I don't think it would work. Risking everything for some invisible person who doesn't exist isn't worth it. I imagine if I did that what is being suggested here, one day when I am old, I would probably just end up alone (albeit in maybe a nice house with nice things) without any family and would have to live with the guilt that I failed our family. Of course, if the small chance existed that I could find someone, that may surely be preferable, but I don't see how I would ever find anyone who truly cared about me.
homophobia = lifestyle choice [homo]sexuality = biological reality It's that simple whatever the labels are. I think it's best to just try to fit your values toward the golden rule and avoid nitpicking what was obviously not designed for people like you to have all their needs met (yes, sexual expression, even if it is solo acts, is very much a need - read Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs).
I think you're missing the point, probably deliberately. Your lack of compassion and love and your decision to avoid bothering to understand your own and others' emotions are exactly what drives your ridiculous and superficial values that make you unhappy. I might also add that what you're doing gives your name no credit. If your reasons to carry it on remain what they are, then your family name really ought to be besmirched and brought back to reality and removed from its grandiose fiction to its gritty reality - what you have done is horrible and what you intend to do is useless.. Self-propogation as you support is the crudest and least sophisticated mentality to have regarding your family. In that sense, your idea of a grand dynasty commands about as much respect and has as much thoughtfulness as the reproductive habits of a troop of gorillas. If you want to be remembered and you want your family to mean anything, do something that has a fruitful result and stop believing that your name is more important than yourself as a person and the people you harm along the way. That is not a meaningful legacy, nor one most people will respect. You can carry on with this delusion, but you'll only have yourself to blame when your life turns out to be unsatisfactory and shallow.
You don't have to be like that. Life is something precious. As a human being, you are something unique and precious. You may not have been raised to think about love, just about wealth and fulfillment of society wishes. Of course money isn't a bad thing, but do not put it above yourself. You are not a toy to someone to pull strings, you don't need to continue building your life and the future of your family around lies. Even if you end up in a straight relationship (because you may be bi, for example), do not marry a woman because of genetics. Marry someone you love, man or woman. Do it and start building a relationship and a future based in love, based on your feelings and what really matters to you, not to anybody else. You only have one life (at least on earth if you are a believer). Make it count. Of course, saying is easier than doing it. But start thinking about exploring the possibilities. Look for love. The man/woman of your life may be closer than you think. I'm a cold person, I think about money a lot too (and I like it), but I can't ignore that feelings exist too (they can be scientifically measured through hormones and other substances!). And my happiness is important. If I seek happiness I can make someone happy too.
I live in the UK - a country with an aristocratic tradition dating back many centuries. The great British dynasties have endured and survived longer than any you might care to consider.. despite 'flaws' and failures in the bloodline, so I don't buy into all of these contrary arguments. The great families of the nation always find a way to continue the name. If you want a perfect example, you need only examine the genealogy of the British Monarchy. Do you suppose the grand Dukes, the Earls and Lords of the Britsh realm always had a perfect bloodline with no family issues to consider? Absolutely not. But like all powerful men - they found a way. If your family is hell bent on preserving a tradition, they too would find a way.. with or without you.
Okay. Normally I wouldn't be the person to lash out or be upset about someone else's opinion, but this is one of the most absurd things I've heard in a while. First off, I'm just gonna chime in and re-install the fact that surrogate mothers exist! You can pass on your bloodline and live a happy and healthy life living as a man who loves other men. I know this may be shocking, but it's true. You're kind of missing that point. Furthermore, if you honestly believe life is about appearances and formalities, then, in my opinion, that's a sad life to live. People don't decide to become gay, so when they're coming out and living their life as themselves, they're going to be much happier in the long run. Coming out is finally expressing yourself as you really are: your true colors. If you can't be yourself, then what kind of life is that? You're suppressing yourself and hiding who you truly are simply because you think that there's format to be followed in living life? I'm gonna go ahead and say, yet again in my opinion, that's moronic. If everyone was the same, the world wouldn't have progressed the way it has. Different minds thinking together or clashing is how we have come here today. And albeit I didn't come out of the closet yet, I'm very proud to be who I am: a free-thinking individual with ideas and emotion just like any other person, also I'm gay. Hahahah. I think you really need to sit down, buddy. You should really have some realization of what life truly is and you setting these guidelines for yourself is tarnishing your happiness that money cannot buy. Good day, sir.
This discussion is really getting interesting and I hope OP really takes something positive out of this. I am getting lot of insights even for myself and I am thankful to EC friends.. (*hug*) FAITH & FEAR: Two Fs somehow affect whether our life will be getting fu**ed or not. Have faith and conquer your fear. Things will be fine. Regardless of any environment: If you cannot live your life truly for your self for your own happiness, you will REGRET...a lot... And how can you predict that you will be happy with a wife and not happy alone - only based on external fears.? Who knows whats gonna happen in future in environment outside you.? Imagination is good but don't over-think about future which is yet to come. Did you know you will be posting on such topic and part of such discussion six months back.? No one has seen future. The only thing which you should look is your present inner self - which will help you determine most of the things. I really hope that you can find courage and look into the matter from different perspective for your own self. Everything would work. You will definitely find someone who will care for you regardless of the gender. Don't worry. We are here for you. (*hug*)
I know the feeling of having to carry on a bloodline, which in my family's case all that remains is the name, but is it really worth it? Is all the unhappiness really worth the continuation of a name that might not even make it past your children's generation? This was actually one of the main reason why I didn't want to accept that I'm gay. It was this, in my opinion, stupid idea of bloodlines that made me not want to accept who I am. Im not saying that you should give up the idea of bloodlines which I know can be very hard to break, but you should know that you can still carry on your bloodline and be happy. You don't need to follow a cookie cutter mold. But in the end, it's you're decision and you can decide what path in life to take. However, I do think you should give yourself a chance at happiness whether you end up with a man or a woman.
