Sometimes I think it's just my age getting to me...

I think I may have said some of this here before, and if so I'm sorry. But it's something that's on my mind tonight and I think talking about it will help.

Sometimes I think this wondering about my orientation is just my last-ditch attempt to believe I won't be alone for the rest of my life. That if I "come out" it will somehow change my life.

I've been divorced over ten years now, had one long-term online (and only online) relationship with a man, and a few first dates with men and women that didn't go anywhere, physically or otherwise. I haven't had sex in over ten years. I didn't even realize that was unusual until recently. I don't even mean that it's bad because it's unusual, but it's kind of bad in that I didn't choose that and I don't want it to be this way.

And I've never had good sex. I don't mean that I haven't been sexually attracted to men and I've enjoyed kissing but sex, particularly intercourse, never really got beyond "Yeah I guess I see why people think is this is fun, kind of." I liked doing it all right with my husband because I loved him and I liked the cuddling and human contact, but I almost never got really sexually excited. (It didn't help that he didn't like to do anything even remotely "different," and since for religious reasons we didn't have sex until we were married I didn't know that.)

I know there are other people in this position here (going without sex) and much worse ones too, and I'm not trying to start a pity party. But I'm just wondering... maybe what I really want is to think that if I start dating women I'll finally meet someone I can enjoy sex with, and even more importantly be with instead of being alone. I'm thinking that somehow I can change my life by saying I like women and finding a woman to be with. (Not that I think I'll just somehow find someone automatically, but that's a whole different topic.) Whereas what I should be doing is forgetting this stupid "wondering" and "questioning" and just looking for a man since I know I like men even if I maybe like women too.

 

I actually did have a little sex before I started dating my husband, because I wasn't religious then, though that sex was pretty awful. I figured it would get better when I got married, and to be fair it did.

I have explored some erotica, both in and after my marriage. In my marriage I was hoping it would turn me on so that I would enjoy sex, but that never happened. I was drawn toward female/female erotica but because I was only looking for a particular narrow type of erotica (japanese fancomics) I didn't find much that was to my taste.

After my marriage, and excuse the TMI, finally I got some advice on sex toys etc. and I learned to give myself an orgasm. I have looked at visual porn and I only seem to like female/female porn. I used to read written erotica and respond mostly to heterosexual stuff but now I find myself responding very strongly to lesbian material. But from what I've seen on this site and other places, the kind of porn you like means nothing and you shouldn't pay any attention to it.

I enjoy fantasizing about men and women. With men it seems to be only certain celebrities that I like a lot. With women I can more easily picture just a general fantasy of actually meeting a person and having sex with them. The problem is that, again according to what I've seen here, I'm concerned I may have messed up my sexual response by watching porn and having it inspire my fantasies.

Wow, I'm sorry, that got long, and maybe you didn't even want to hear it, in which case I apologize. I just wanted to let you know that I have tried some of the things you're talking about. I do want to say that I know I can find fulfillment without a partner, but the idea of being alone for the rest of my life fills me with dread and I don't think that means I have a bad attitude.

 

Thank you very much OOC73. I'm fairly certain my interest in women is beyond "mild" but the few times I had coffee dates with women after my divorce it didn't amount to anything. (Same with men though.)

It's very hard for me to get over the idea that I need a label. I just feel stupid always saying I'm "questioning" because I've been saying it for many years and I should have a damn answer by now.

I think one of the things that bothers me is that I know I've been in love with men, and sexually attracted even if the sexual arousal really never panned out. And that makes me feel like if I'm not straight I'm bisexual and I'm scared of being bisexual for a number of reasons. I mean if I'm bisexual then it seems like I have no excuse for not trying harder with my ex-husband. (Well, I made a lot of mistakes there which are a long story and not all connected with my orientation.) And I should want to date men now but I really don't, unless my favorite celebrities come for a visit which is highly unlikely.

I know part of your point is that I don't need a label. And for myself I guess I don't. But if I'm ever going to meet a woman, she's going to want to know what's up with me I think.

(The voice in my head seems to tell me I'm straight and wasting my time, but there must be something else going on because I don't seem content to just be straight. But I have a therapy appointment on Monday and she wants to work on this, and I'm really tempted to tell her that I'm straight and I don't want to talk about it anymore.)

And paris I totally see your point, in spite of what I said above. I definitely wish I had explored this when I was younger and now I think it may be too late.

Sometimes I think I should just try to hook up with a woman and see if I enjoy the sex. But I think I'd be too uncomfortable with that for it to be a good idea, and now, well, like I said in another thread I feel it's very unlikely I'm going to meet anybody, even if I found a label I'm comfortable with or stopped worrying about that.

I really appreciate the support. Thank you so much, everyone.

 

No, no there is no TMI here as far as I'm concerned. That is actually almost exactly like my experience with porn, visual porn at least.

As far as butterflies though I distinctly remember my first crush which was on a guy and I definitely had butterflies. I don't remember ever feeling that about a woman. So it seems simple to figure out I'm straight really... but I'm still not sure.

I really appreciate hearing your story, and I'm so happy for you that you will be able to be with the woman you love!

OOC73 I feel exactly the way you do about the hookup thing, if I didn't enjoy it it might just be because I don't enjoy hooking up with people. And if I did enjoy myself I'd probably tell myself that some straight women like to hook up with women. (Which is apparently true, although from my point of view if I liked a woman enough to do that I'd probably stop identifying as straight. But hey other people should identify how they want to.)

I think I know one of the things I'm afraid of but I'm really afraid and ashamed to admit it. I say I'm afraid of being bisexual because of attitudes about bisexuals, but that's not really the main reason. I was an Orthodox Jew for many years. In the circles I ran in there was virtually no acceptance of homosexuality. But right after I left (which was partly because I couldn't agree with that anymore) I saw some people who considered themselves Orthodox talking about being gay, and they said it's all right to be gay because gay people can't help it but bisexual people can just choose to be with opposite sex so they have no excuse. I thought that was stupid at the time, and I think it's stupid now, but I think I may have internalized it -- first the general homophobia and then the specific biphobia.

I still keep some of the Jewish laws, though I work on the Sabbath because I'd lose my job otherwise and that's a huge breaking of many major laws. As long as I'm only watching and reading porn I'm not technically breaking any of the major laws about sex. So I don't think I can reconcile this with what's left of my faith, especially if I'm bisexual and can theoretically choose men. I even eat only strictly kosher food, and I'd have to give that up unless I only wanted to date religious Jewish lesbian women -- there are some but very few. (Please don't ask me to explain kosher food, it would take forever and bore you to tears, but practically speaking it means I only eat food that I cook myself or in specific restaurants.)

Which is a long roundabout way of saying I think G-d is going to get me for this, even though I don't always believe in G-d at all.

---------- Post added 3rd Jan 2015 at 01:02 PM ----------

That is really interesting and it helps to know that other people get to where they shut down about sex.

I had a long (and really stupid) online relationship with a man and I think part of why I kept wanting that was because it gave me an excuse to not be out having sex with people. But then again I enjoyed the sex talk with him and he was a man...

And I have the same issue with "good sex." Until I learned to pleasure myself I had no idea how bad the sex I was having had been. I thought I didn't like intercourse but enjoyed some other things like oral but my memories don't compare to the arousal I can feel now.

If I was feeling that arousal with women that would explain a lot, but I'm feeling it with, well, myself. Maybe I've just discovered sex, not women. I do enjoy fantasies about women but I enjoy fantasies about my favorite celebrities too and they're men.

(Sorry if I'm repeating myself, or giving too much detail.)

 

I've been thinking ever since I made that admission and I think my religious beliefs are a huge part of the problem here. On some level, I still feel like my choices are to be married to a (Jewish) man or to be alone and there's no other morally right choice.

I feel very excited when I think about dating or having sex with women. But I always tell myself I'm "making myself feel that way" because I "want to be gay."

Except it's not like I "want to be gay" in the ridiculous sense of "Oh, I'm so frustrated with men, I just wish I were gay!" I'm not particularly frustrated with men and my ex-husband was a nice guy. It's more like I want to be gay because I want to be with women, which... seems to be an answer right there.

Of course my mind is always pushing things at me, trying to tell me I'm being ridiculous. My first crush was on a guy, I still crush on male celebrities, etc. But the truth is unless one of those celebrities came knocking on my door I don't really want to date a man at this point.

Then again as everyone keeps saying it could simply be that I'm bisexual and I shouldn't feel bad or be ashamed about that. But when I look at the amount of sex I've had, and the extent to which I've sought out sex (with men,) I really start wondering if I want to have sex with men at all.

I mean I suppose theoretically I could have sex with a woman and that would end up awful but the way I feel right now I really don't think so.

But getting back to the religious thing, I really have to address that. I'm going to talk to my therapist about it. Also I have a DVD which is a film about lesbian and gay Orthodox Jews. I've watched it before but it was more that I wanted to show it to my confused (at the time) kid. Maybe I need to really watch it and think about who I am.

That still doesn't explain why I didn't act on any of this before I became religious. But maybe I don't have to explain my whole past.

Anyway yeah this religion thing is huge. I usually don't talk about it because it's just so much there and so obvious it's like water to a fish. I feel guilty about nearly everything I do so of course I feel guilty about that too. (Also I don't want to offend people or make them uncomfortable by talking about my fear of homosexuality being a sin.) But yeah I really need to think about this, not just the bisexuality part but the whole religious guilt over sexual relationships.

Anyway I don't mean to go on and on. It just helps for me to get this out.

 

I think there's a part of me that thinks someday I'll want to go back to being religious, and marry a religious Jewish man and keep the laws like I used to. Because I feel a huge amount of guilt about leaving the religion, so sometimes I tell myself maybe I'll go back someday.

And coming out would mean that's never going to happen. And if I want to find a partner I might have to stop observing the few things I do observe, because they'd want me to eat in restaurants with them, that's only natural.

The other thing is that I think part of me wants to make a trade-off with G-d. Like "OK I break a lot of laws all the time but hey at least I'm not having sex!" I mean I'm mostly not having sex because I don't have any chance at it but I feel like maybe I'm storing up some credit in heaven.

And maybe not coming out is part of that. That I feel like if I live as a straight person and deprive myself maybe G-d will forgive me for all my other "sins." (I'm putting sins in quotes because I'm talking about Jewish ritual laws, not stuff like hurting other people...)

Yet at the same time I'm saying this I'm trying to meet women online. I know I should wait until I'm 100% sure what's going on with me but I know I want to be with a woman and I think I may never figure things out if I'm not. But being that I'm a little weird and not especially attractive I don't think that's going to happen.

So I get back to thinking "Well at least I'm earning points in heaven."

It's weird because today I found myself thinking "Well of course no woman is going to want to go out with you because she'd worry you would leave her for a man." And then I thought "Why would I want a man if I could have a woman?" But then of course I jumped all over myself and told myself I was just making that up because it sounded good and it wasn't what I really think.