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Dealing with shame

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by nerdbrain, Jan 2, 2015.

  1. nerdbrain

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    Lately I am feeling overwhelmed by shame at many levels.

    Shame for leading my wife into a failed marriage, wasting her time and breaking her heart.

    Shame for not knowing sooner, for living in denial all these years despite endless therapy, reading and attempts to test the gay waters.

    And, most of all, sexual shame. Shame for my deepest fantasies of submission to a man. So much shame I can’t even access those fantasies unless I’m alone, because I can't even imagine someone looking at me while I do those things.

    I imagine a conversation with my wife where I decisively state that I am gay; in effect admitting to all of the above. I can’t bear it; I break down sobbing even as I rehearse the words.

    At that moment, all I want is to go home, back to the warmth and safety and humor of my marriage (we are now separated). I feel like my life is being ripped away from me by a powerful force that I don’t fully understand. And I guess I’m ashamed of that, too — my inability to own it.

    I feel absolutely choked by a toxic cloud of shame that feels thick and heavy like poison. It's weird because I don't judge other gay people harshly, or have much concern about what they do in bed. But for me there is no mercy from my own mind.

    How the hell do I move past this?
     
  2. RunnerRunner2

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    Oh buddy, it seems pretty obvious that you're a good guy who didn't maliciously intend to trick. All of this shame was foisted on you by others. I went through the same thing, all of it. You must accept that you are an innocent victim I'm all this. It's going to take a while for that to seep down, but it will. The sooner you stop picking at the injury the better.

    Your attraction to men is not inferior to an attraction to women. It does not indicate a malfunction or dysfunction in you. It's hard to accept because we've received a life time of instruction to the contrary.

    Be gentle to yourself.
     
  3. BiBiBaybee

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    When I was in grade school, a nun told us that people in heaven, like our grandparents, could look down and see all the dirty and terrible things we do. It took a long time to come to terms with that, especially after I figured masturbation out! Similarly, I had difficulty in not feeling shame at just having thoughts about another guy. I guess it resolved for me when I recognized a few things, and these occurred years apart:
    1. I gave myself permission to make and learn from my mistakes. Usually in hindsight, but still . . .
    2. I looked at how I treated the people around me recently, and convinced myself that I was a pretty good guy. I usually did the right thing. Even if it was holding the door for someone with their arms full of groceries.
    3. I finally accepted who I was as a person with romantic and sexual feelings. I allowed myself to think about these things without beating myself up.

    I don't know if that is helpful, nb, but I have a strong feeling that you did not intentionally lead your wife into a.marriage that you knew would fail. You are blaming yourself for something that was out of your control.
     
  4. mapleluv

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    The thought that most helps me to deal with shame about my life choices is to remember that it is the intentions behind actions which determine their morality, not necessarily their results.

    For example: if I give up my seat to an elderly woman on a bus, but then that bus gets hit by a semi & smashes right into that poor old lady & kills her but not me, I still did the right thing by giving up my seat to her. I was trying to do the right thing at the time, even if the consequence of my action was horrendous. So I shouldn't feel ashamed of what I did- I was just trying to be a good person!

    Similarly, you most likely did not mean to lead your wife into a failed marriage. Even if you already doubted your sexuality, you probably did intend to stay with her forever. And you did not mean to be in denial- you just were. You probably really, really wanted to make everything be good & happy. Your intentions were good. You were trying to do the right thing, & you still are. You are not a bad person!

    And when it comes to sexual shame- remember, if it's not hurting anybody (against their will :icon_wink), it's all good! Sexual pleasure is beautiful, & different for every one of us. Don't pass judgment on yourself, just do what you do & enjoy it!
     
  5. Monraffe

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    I would just point out that it was shame and guilt that originally got you into this situation, way back when you first tried to force yourself to be something you are not. You can choose to move past all of the standards and moral arguments that are making you miserable and simply stop caring about them. You might see this as not caring about values or other people's feelings but it is actually quite the opposite. By not being anywhere you allow yourself to be everywhere.

    If you want to become whole,
    Let yourself be partial.
    If you want to become straight,
    Let yourself be crooked.
    If you want to become full,
    Let yourself be empty.
    If you want to be reborn,
    Let yourself die.
    If you want to be given everything,
    Give everything up.

    "Tao Te Ching" by Lao Tzu
     
  6. MarthRoyIke

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    This is a remarkably insightful way to think. There is a bit of Christian rhetoric rolling around my head about the road to hell, but your example helps to highlight the error in that thinking.
     
  7. greatwhale

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    Hey NB, welcome back!

    I posted a thread today that partially addresses what you are talking about.

    But the relevant passages from Esther Perel's TED talk are as follows:

    On sex:

    So shame-laden is sex, especially in America's Puritan-rooted morality, that we have a hard time reconciling it with the safety and stability of the home. What Perel is saying is that these two essential things, love and desire, are often at odds with each other.

    But getting back to the desired safety and stability of the home, Perel offers this:

    To the OP: are you that 2nd child, always looking over your shoulder, wondering if the other will be there for you?

    You do desperately need to sow some wild oats and explore. Keep us posted on your progress!
     
  8. skiff

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    Hi Nerd,

    I am not rejecting your feelings of shame (your feelings are your own and valid) but I never experienced shame over being gay. Anxiety, and fear of my life being destroyed for being gay... that I had.

    Gay sex was like falling off a log, straight sex ackward.

    I may be unusual but I was partnered a long time (15-16 years) before my marriage. From age 13-29 with the same guy. I guess you could say I am "relationship keyed" unomfortable alone. Whether that is just me or a byproduct of that partnership during my teens/twenties matters little but that got me married to a woman. After I split with partner I could not find another man who was relationship keyed and gave up looking, naively deciding only woman were keyed that way, trusting in the societal nonsense "love conquors all" (see EC lgbt later in life forum et al for proof) and hoping for some sexual fluidity married a female friend I loved.

    Naive mistakes, innocent mistakes, gross mistakes I made them. But shame I do not have. If I had deliberately made these mistakes with harmful intent I would be ashamed but I didn't. I was trying to do the right thing based on my limited, naive life experience. There is no guide book or reference book, or social model for us. We had to do the best e could. We all made errors.

    My point is these were naive errors with no harmful intent. Shame is misplaced here.

    I would say sadness and anxiety, grieving the problems created by the error but not shame.
     
  9. Choirboy

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    This is really a great way to look at it! And much the same way I've worked my way through things as well.

    I have come to think of "coming out" less as a journey out of the closet, than a gradual realization that I have worth as a person, and no one--including me!--has the right to tell me that who I am is a bad thing. I was born gay and I tried to hide it because I felt that it made me less desirable, less worthy, less loveable a person. But really, it's as much a part of me as my brown eyes and gray hair and Slavic ancestry. I can't expect anyone else to accept me if I can't accept myself. I could whine about my religion or my neighbors or evil society, but the fact is, a significant part of their reaction depends on my own attitude. If you work at being accepting of yourself and find value in who you are, it's a lot harder for others to shame you, because you have the strength to reject that negativity, and you'll be far better equipped to deal with those who have a problem with you.

    Use this time of change as a chance to develop a more positive opinion of yourself first, and all the very special and unique things you have to offer. Once you start believing that you have value, it's a lot harder to single out one aspect of yourself, like being gay, and use it as some kind of imaginary stick to beat yourself with. (Or imagine OTHERS beating you with it.) Nothing to be ashamed of at all. But convincing yourself of that can be a big battle. Be strong. Your worst enemy is in your own head, and he knows all your weak spots. But you can win.
     
  10. nerdbrain

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    Thank you everyone. I really needed to get that out of my head.

    I hear all your good advice. I do know that my intentions have been good.

    Perhaps another way of putting it is that I am ashamed of not being the master of my own mental and emotional house.

    All my life, I've thought of myself as straight. I still do, weird as that may sound. Therefore these gay thoughts are intruders, invaders that don't belong here. And I feel powerless as all of my efforts to manage them have failed. That's where a lot of the shame comes from -- my inability to control or even fully understand what's happening inside my head.

    Now that I have accepted that these thoughts and feelings are here to stay, I understand (intellectually) that the solution is to somehow integrate and own them.

    But that is just so problematic for me right now. It's basically saying, "Take this thing that has been your lifelong enemy, and now suddenly make it your identity and be proud of it. Oh, by the way, you also need to give up your closest loving relationship and step out into an unknown world. See ya later."

    It just seems like a catastrophic loss, and each time I try to approach it I break down in tears. It feels so unbelievably unfair.
     
    #10 nerdbrain, Jan 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2015
  11. skiff

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    [QUOTPerhaps another way of putting it is that I am ashamed of not being the master of my own mental and emotional house.

    Al[/QUOTE]

    You never had a chance...

    A gazelle born amongst lions, trying to fake lion

    Yoy cannot beat that kind of wave of societal programming

    ---------- Post added 3rd Jan 2015 at 10:18 AM ----------

    It is a miracle we have any sanity :slight_smile:
     
  12. OOC73

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    Aww Nerdbrain I just want to cuddle you.

    It does take time to let the new feelings settle in, and you are still in semi-denial, in that you have accepted that the feelings exist but are not yet ready to take full ownership of them. Give yourself a huge amount of time and self-care. There is no rush to leap out of any closet. There is no need to announce yourself to the world, especially not when you are nowhere near ready to do so.

    Just let the feelings sit for a while. Allow yourself to feel them, acknowledge them, address them directly, and maybe one day welcome them.

    It is not always the case that you have to give up your best loving relationship. Relationships can evolve and change without being destroyed altogether. For myself and my husband, the realisation that I am gay has definitely irrevocably changed the status of our marriage, but we still are best friends and love one another, just our version of what we thought was forever is changing into a different sort of forever. With honesty, love and patience, and understanding that there is a grief process at work, your relationship can evolve beyond what you have now into something even stronger, because you faced this challenge and not only survive on it but come to thrive as a result of it.

    When I first came out, I was like a bull in a china shop, so little control over my feelings, crying, devastated, yet happy to know why I had felt so wrong in my own skin all these years. But once that subsided and I became more open to everything, the picture started to get a lot clearer and the pain a little less sharp. For some people, the band-aid removal approach is what they need, for others, a gentler and softer awakening is essential in order to allow them the time to process each part.

    Don't rush to be anything. Just allow yourself to be.
     
  13. Choirboy

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    I don't buy this kind of fatalism. If things are that hopeless, why would any of us bother to come out, and why would so many of us be so much happier after?

    Happiness isn't something that just magically falls from the sky. We have to actively seek it and believe that we're worth it. We can't actively criticize society, and then blame it for our problems while claiming that IT doesn't accept US. The attitudes of portions of society may have triggered sone of our feelings of inadequacy and shame, but you get past it by active, positive action, not by asserting that you're helpless and hopeless.we CAN overcome shame and we CAN find a place to find acceprance and belonging.
     
  14. OOC73

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    There are huge swathes of what you just said that I agree with - and I noted that you switched from an I position to a We position when you talked about how to get past it. I think there is a lot to be said for being able to come at this from a position of We. But at first, in I would imagine pretty much universally all cases, we start to approach this from an I perspective. And that's lonely, and isolating, and takes a while to move out of. And can make people feel lost and alone, and weakened as a result. Ordinary society at that point is intimidating and threatening, because we have to find the strength to step outside of the boundaries and just be.

    Somewhere like this is a huge source of strength for us, as we can start to overcome those feelings of lacking acceptance and belonging with one another. Here has just about the most modern approach to sexuality as you will find anywhere on the Internet. I am carrying the strength and support I find here, and bringing it into my offline world as I progress into fully coming out. I know if things were bad, or I got a bad reaction, I would still be able to find acceptance and understanding here. And that makes things more bearable, and in turn increases my confidence and strength and ability to deal with and cope with the changes that are happening. And I live in a very tolerant society by comparison.

    When people first end up here though, they are often not yet there, and do feel cornered, and afraid. It is only when they start to feel more of the WE, that they feel less alone and in turn begin to become strong enough to forge their own path.
     
    #14 OOC73, Jan 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2015
  15. nerdbrain

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    That would be very nice (*hug*)

    One of the worst parts about this whole mess is that my wife has always been my emotional support, and now that I am going through the most difficult experience of my life I can't really lean on her since she is involved.

    And Skiff, a gazelle born among lions is a good, if depressing, analogy. I guess I'm not even sure if I'm a gazelle (gay-zelle?). I still find women attractive. The gay part sort of comes in waves. I wind up stuck and paralyzed, waiting for clarity that never comes.
     
  16. offmychest

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    dealing with shame? can't break free from its chokehold vicegrip, check out what celebrated author, Oprah talk show guest, and global speaker, Brene Brown has to say on the topic. Her candor during her viral video TED Talk gives a unique, vulnerable, and personal testimony of her own struggles with shame. Brene delves into what shame is and how one can become of phoenix rising from its ashes.

    Brené Brown: Listening to shame | Talk Video | TED.com
     
    #16 offmychest, Jan 3, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2015
  17. nerdbrain

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    Hey Greatwhale, as always you hit the nail on the head. I am certainly caught in this loop of caretaking with my wife. I can't let the relationship go because I guess I've become emotionally dependent, but it is not erotically fulfilling.

    Ugh, that is unpleasant to admit.
     
  18. SouthernGeek

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    I am there with you. And I think sometimes people who are supporters of LGBT rights are too quick to ask people like us to dismiss the OTHER part of our identity -- the part of us that is in some way connected to a "hetero lifestyle" (for lack of better way of putting it).

    I have no idea what I'm doing because I'm at LEAST as confused as you are, but I don't think you can expect to simply rip that part of your being away at once. Or can you? I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it's okay to acknowledge every part of yourself.

    You say that you aren't erotically attracted to your wife, but there is some level of attraction. Explore what that is and what it means to you, and talk with your wife about it. I think talking and being open will help unseat the truth.

    Peace
     
  19. skiff

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    Ummm...

    Can you be the gay man with heteronormative programming? Yes you can. I believe the gay monicor is "masculine". All you strip away is the female partner, insert male partner and nothing else has to change.
     
  20. CyclingFan

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    Hi, nerdbrain,

    I feel like I've experienced over the last few months all of these same emotions and upheavals that you're going through.

    I know that we have both experienced some pretty intense feelings of guilt and shame through this process. Recently I realized something about just how I'd set myself up for these feelings, regardless of outcome. Either I will have to deal with these feelings due to at least some attraction to other men or I will have to for ending a pretty happy marriage for an unreal reason ("I'm crazy", midlife crisis, some other subconscious feeling).

    For me, that realization seems to have really helped me get out of this "stuck" feeling and it feels like I've made a bit of a break through on that guilt and shame. Noting how it's shaped me for years, how it's there no matter what decision I make, has been freeing.

    Best,

    Cf