General News 1 in 4 men in India are self-admitted rapists

My point wasn't that it isn't worse in India. It is. My point was that what Pret and I say is always acknowledged as existing in India as an Indian problem, but we're challenged when we bring it up as an American or English or Australian problem, especially when we implicate white men in it. What we're saying is not that India doesn't have it worse. It's that everyone's willing to jump to the defence of its non-existence and refuses to say it's a cultural problem in the US or a similar country, but will fervently attack the barbarity of Indian men.

We have a confrontational attitude about rape and racism, which I think is more than acceptable. I single out white people because if I were to single out Indians, none of you would have opposed it as there is opposition to what I did point is, which is not even close to what you thought I was saying.

I say that because whites are willing to call Indians rapists but ignore it in their own cultures. I do not say that white people are more likely to be rapists. I am merely saying that white people are more willing to acknowledge it when it's not white people doing it. Which, I think it fair to say, is very true.

 

And yet...

"A third of Britons believe a woman who acts flirtatiously is partially or completely to blame for being raped, according to a new study.

More than a quarter also believe a woman is at least partly responsible for being raped if she wears sexy or revealing clothing, or is drunk, the study found.

One in five think a woman is partly to blame if it is known she has many sexual partners, while more than a third believe she is responsible to some degree if she has clearly failed to say "no" to the man." (From the DailyMail)

 

But if a woman here is raped, she can go to the police and report it, without fear of being shunned by the authorities because it was 'her fault' - as would be the case in India. She might not go to to the authorities for other reasons - she herself might feel ashamed by what has happened, she may want to avoid a lengthy and possibly publicised court hearing etc.

Take the recent court hearings regarding Jimmy Saville and the countless young girls (and some young boys) he sexually assaulted - they're not being shamed because of what happened - instead, they are receiving help and people are outraged that he got away with his crimes due to his 'connections'.

I've yet to meet a person who genuinely believes a woman deserves to be raped because of the way she dresses, and that article you're quoting has no links or sources to the actual study. Really poor show by the Daily Mail (no surprises there).

I acknowledge that there are rapists here - all I am doing is pointing out the difference in severity between India and developed countries (that by coincidence happen to be mostly white). I think it's fair to say that all developed countries have made huge strides in women's rights and gender equality - but the situation is not so pretty in India and probably most countries in the world where women are still treated like lesser citizens.

 

Revealed: Why the police are failing most rape victims | The Bureau of Investigative Journalism

900,000 crimes, including rape, not pursued by police in 2013 - Crime - UK - The Independent

 

Cops are corrupt in Asian countries, in Malaysian a teenager was raped upto 38 men. In the Dalit village girls are raped there constantly it's been happening for years.

 

imnotreallysure,

I totally understand what you're saying and I agree, but I would like to point out that YES, women CAN report rape and assault and harassment, BUT I have personally seen the justice and legal system FAIL in acknowledging and handling cases and YES, there ARE cases where women have been discriminated against - in rape trauma centers, at general hospitals, by police - when filing reports because of the whole, "The woman deserved it because she was dressed like a 'whore'," and 'ostrich syndrome' mentality.

Additionally, if the perpetrator in question has influence or a name in the community, pressing charges can be quite a battle.

No one is going to admit that they thought the woman deserved it but the attitude is still alive in more private discussions and in more anonymous settings.

One spin on things that I have personally seen was the counter-accusation of the woman seeking to either climb the work and social status ladder or gain money through pressing charges by deliberately making herself sexually appealing to the perpetrator.

Completely untrue, completely disgusting, and yet it happened. It's no wonder women are shamed away from reporting and this is happening in a developed country.

So please, just because YOU don't think it happens doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

Maybe I was wrong to state that it 'never' happens - but I think we can conclude that it is the exception to the rule, whereas in India, it appears to be the norm. That is the difference I am highlighting. You guys appear to be under the impression that I am diminishing the severity of an individual rape victim's suffering by implying that they don't have it as bad as someone in India, when that isn't the case at all - I am just pointing out the pretty stark differences that exist between India and the West as far as rape and rape victims are concerned.

I feel like I am repeating myself.

 

Wow, it's almost as if you didn't read at all what we were saying. We didn't question the validity of the poll, we questioned a statement which said "it literally doesn't happen here," and no, I haven't actually directed any of this at you. We were going off stuff which has happened in other areas of EC, on other threads, which has carried on into this one.

If you take a general statement personally, then it's likely that someone's going to believe you identified with it.

 

It's the same problem in the Middle East. Women are ogled like they're in a zoo and Hijab doesn't stop sexual harassment, actually it might encourage sexual harassment because "god-fearing" women are less likely to make a scene when they get harassed so as not to lose the family's honour...

The problem in the middle east stems from women being overprotected and being practically owned by the closest male family member, exacerbated (and caused and majorly affected) by religion and traditions.

I think the problem in Indian society is that females are aborted or killed shortly after birth so that the parents do not have to pay dowry

I guess the situation in the Middle East is not as bad because dowry is paid by the husband's family to the bride's family instead, so its the other way around. Although that, too, has obvious shortcomings such as making one's daughters a source of income or refusing to marry (sell) them off unless a "suitably" large dowry is expected.

 

I agree. This forum can get rather heated, especially over terminology or when someone takes a moderate approach to activism.

 

Well, gang rape and homicide are unheard of here and I think they're pretty rare across the Middle East, so its definitely not as extreme as India. But rape is not that uncommon and sexual harassment is very common but both go unreported most of the time, an Austrian woman and also a Norwegian one were recently freed from prison by their countries' embassies for reporting rape in the UAE.

Honestly, I do not know what's going on in India as I've never been there but I can tell you that the reason for it happening here is a severe clash between modernity and the crushingly traditionalist Arab mentality. It's a war that traditionalism will lose if the current trends are continued, at least in the UAE.

Basically, imagine that just 50 years ago, women in the Middle East were generally expected to stay at home all day and weren't allowed to leave without accompaniment from a male family member. Now, in UAE, we have a very advanced (economically) society with everything accompanying that. Skyscrapers, massive malls, luxurious cars, world-class hotels. Everything is well and advanced, except for the people.

The society is wrecked to the point that I don't know how to describe it. It's a mess. Fun fact: I don't know who lives next door to me, and if you asked anyone else, they'll tell you the same. The reason is what I stated above: Traditionalism v Modernity.
UAE still has apostasy laws. South Asian workers here are treated like slaves and everyone is starting to realize that thanks to the Media. Being a homosexual means that you'll either get imprisoned or expatriated depending on your citizenship (UAE citizenship is impossible to get, so its expatriation for 70% of the population). All of this pertains despite cities like Dubai rivaling many advanced and rich western cities where these ideas are so unthinkable that even people who identify themselves as traditionalists wouldn't accept them.

So how does this relate to sexual harassment? Simple. Women are now less restricted than before in travelling, but they will still get imprisoned and expatriated for such trivial things as having sex, the same applies to males, but having a penile stick naturally makes you less prone to bullshit "justice". And if you get sexually harassed, you can't just report it! I mean, you were obviously asking for it when you dressed like that!

Now, although the laws themselves are here to stay since UAE is strictly an absolute monarchy and everyone is happy with it, as long as they get paid, the enforcement declines with time. As UAE tries to look more attractive to tourists it will have to make concessions so as to not piss them off, but sadly that's not being capitalized on by human rights groups because who cares about human rights as long as they don't affect you?

 

I feel like my original post caused confusion and the intent wasn't completely clear.

It would be accurate to say that women are not publicly shamed for being raped in this country (even if some people harbour these views in private - which is not good either). Some rape victims are left vulnerable after their ordeal and find it hard to access the appropriate help, which is something that needs addressing. Most rape claims do not get to the point of an arrest or conviction either - although rape is a difficult crime to prove, and most of the time there appears to be insufficient evidence. More could be done - but rape convictions are going up, which is a positive sign (well, it could be interpreted as negative, but I view it as more women stepping forward and getting the result they want and know is right - as I'm sure most overwhelming majority of rape claims are legitimate, even if some are fake).

In any case, you clearly took issue with what I said well before then - maybe you have a short memory and forgot. Just in case, here is a reminder of what you posted in response to Pret Allez (presumably an indirect response to my post, and the opening post by all paths:

So, once again, it boils down to white people being purposefully ignorant of our own cultural shortcomings while being more than willing to point the finger at other (non-white) cultures. And of course, race is brought into a discussion that did not call for it at all (yet again)

The discourse was a little predictable.

I will reiterate what I said ONE MORE TIME (because I'm getting pretty sick of posting the same thing over and over again) - there is a world of difference between the way women are treated in India, and the way rape is dealt with in India, compared to the West.

Everything is not 'fine' here - but compared to virtually everywhere else in the world, we're practically nirvana. That is simply a fact and cannot be denied by anyone - the Western world leads on women's rights & gender equality, LGBT rights, rights for racial/religious minorities, and just about everything else.

That's really all there is to it. I'm sorry if it upsets you, and I'm sorry that you think I have some sort of white ego thing going on, but that isn't the case.. at all. I can absolutely assure you of that (and whether you believe me or not is not important to me.. so yeah - think what you like, and continue to throw accusations around like confetti).

 

*ignores argument going on* lol

So one of the biggest factors I believe gives rise to this statistic is the fact that they are men, and born in India where being a male means you WILL have a golden spoon in your mouth since birth. You WILL get all the priorities...you WILL be treated like a prince compared to anyone else. Your mistakes WILL be covered up. You are invlunerable & better than your sisters as you are male! Now I don't wanna generalise as many people in cities are a long way from this viewpoint now..but the majority of India is still rural and I'm not sure they have changed all that much.

All of this leads to the majority of Indian men having a huuuge sense of entitlement. I've seen it in a lot of my cousins. Heck when I had to study there for 2 years (my family was planning on moving back to India from the UK) I saw it a lot in the guy students. I heard schools in India were strict but omg these guys would literally just go behind girls & hump them as a joke & make jokes about just 'sticking it in there' no matter what a lot..or going in as a group or whatnot. This was a class of Year 7 boys (so 12-13 years old). If you were a boy with a timid personality you'd be bullied till you turned and became like that! On a side note I think that was the worst place to be for a teen just realising he was gay to live in and it's left me with insecurities & scars which still haven't really healed...luckily I came running back to the UK and didn't look back lol. (Not to say some of the guys in UK secondary schools weren't horrible or morrally misguided...but the intensity and the number of boys like that was very different in India)

Anyway so back to my point. It's this huge sense of entitlement and lack of respect for women (a HUGE part due to their upbringing) is what makes a blurred lines scenario appear where they don't think what they did is wrong. Where if they want something they automatically have a privilege and a right to it. Which is a scary fact. The attitude of the police is from that same place...'Boys will be boys'...they can be forgiven. Even now in Indian media this dialogue is used a lot 'Boys can make a 100 mistakes and still be forgiven..but you are a girl, if you even make 1 mistake people will never let you forget it'.

Obviously other social factors come into play a lot but this is one I could think of. There are a lot of very good things in Indian culture...like some of the family values & stuff which I think would make people happier if they were here in the Western culture. But of course there are a lot of social evils too which cannot be avoided and must be spoken up about. As someone who has seen both the positives & negatives I think the latter outweighs the former. And if I were straight I would probably only be happy living in India if I was really rich (my parents said so themselves..if they weren't loaded they would've never moved back).

 

All this does is show you that human beings are naturally fucked up.

I have even thought that the docile and uninterested mood men are put into after orgasm is because rape was so prevelant that we evolved to pass out after so women could get away.

It's sad but true, but men are horny, and humans are fucked up, a lot are unempathetic, and if given the chance to do what you want, people will kill, rape, and generally fuck with eachother beyond belief. Especially larger alpha males.

Which is why we need government.

This is not a reflection of India, but a reflection of the human race. India has some social, and political restructuring to do to address this issue, but this happens everywhere.

What about the rape culture at universities across North America? It exists, most girls just don't report it.

Human beings are a diverse species, which includes a majority of very primitive thinking people that can't control their urges.

We are animals after all, rape exists all over nature. Many animals wouldn't exist if rape didn't.

So ya, I really don't like the anti-India tone in people's messages here. Especially since a lot of my co-workers and countrymen are Indian.

It is very ridiculous of one to think an entire country of human beings could carry the same personality trait.

It is easier to get away with it there, and girls have less rights, therefore rape happens more.

Put the same situation in the U.S.A and same shit will happen.


*** It's not just a lack of respect for woman, some males are just rapists. It happens all over the world, in places like Canada, where women are equal on all levels; minus older generations.
A lot of rape happens here on University campuses, in cities, in schools, everywhere.

Humans are fucked up.