How I Intend to Tell the Kids

It isn't selfish. It's the only reasonable thing to do. The only reason this would be a problem is if your ex wife is planning to bad mouth you and your orientation contantly. That would be the only reason to wait.

Otherwise, to hell with your ex wife and her therapist. Anyone who wishes you - the father of her children - 'catch something' is very ill or evil herself. So I would take her suggestions with a grain of salt and carry on with your life and with your relationship with your kids as you see fit.

Is your son going to see a different therapist? My husband's daughter has seen a woman who works out of St. Justine (that's the children's hospital, isn't it?) who seemed quite reasonable when my husband has spoken with her. (The problem is that his ex wife is as crazy as yours - only in a very passive aggressive way. And his daughter is turning out to be the spitting image... and neither of them are interested in counselling.) I could get her name for you if you'd like.

All the best. Jim

 

Greatwhale: "A perfect example of shaming and of sweeping under the carpet what should be out in the open, as if the truth were some form of toxic waste."

Some people use truth as a vehicle for abuse so I try to suggest that discretion and truth be paired. That said, perhaps if the therapist views sexuality as a choice, it then allows her to cloak some bigotry, and label the 'choice' as selfish. That kind of rationale gets used on fat people too. I recently told my wife that if I took her weight as personally as she took my sexuality, and expressed such disgust, I couldn't tolerate myself. I killed an argument. Prejudice is a subtle beast.

 

I don't even see how it could be considered selfish. Did she explain the logic behind that?

 

Oh, *I get* their (ridiculous) "logic". Mr. Whale's arguments were (I've added the numbering):
> (1) our youngest is at an age where he can understand what being gay means but
> young enough not to absorb society's biases against LGBT folk
> (2) My ex seems to have told everyone and I would rather that they learn it from me.
> (3) I want to live as openly as possible with my kids

Basically to them:
#1 expresses a desire that greatwhale's son have a minimized chance of not being biased against him for being gay. See? It's about him, not his son...he doesn't want his son to be biased against him, and he's willing to subject his son to this "harmful information" about himself in order to achieve that end.

#2 and #3 are both "I" statements, and therefore inherently selfish. In #2, *greatwhale* wants to be able to control the message to his son about his "deviance"...who does that benefit? And in #3, *greatwhale* wants to live openly with his kids...who does that benefit?

So I get the argument...but it's stupid...and of course it's all based on anti-LGBT bias!

The fact that he's gay is *not* a negative message. The fact that his father has learned something important about himself, and is choosing to live openly is a *positive* message for his son...if the outmoded societal bias against being gay can be avoided, this message should be downright inspirational! And there is *nothing* harmful about the information itself.

And sure, greatwhale uses "I" statements...because *greatwhale* wants the best for his son! Who does it benefit if his son hears a positive spin on his father's sexuality, rather than a negative one? Friggin' everyone. If his mom (or anyone else) delivers a hateful initial message about someone the son loves, the son will feel conflicted and angry toward that person. If that initial message comes from greatwhale himself, it will be positive and there's no downside (unless his mom and/or the therapist is truly homophobic generally, and actually *fears* the son getting a positive message about homosexuality).

And who benefits most if greatwhale lives openly with respect to his kids? His kids. He'll be more present, more emotionally available to his children. Sure greatwhale benefits as well...but the value to the kids of having a father who can be open with them is far greater.

Mr. Whale...do *you* get the sense that either your ex or the therapist are generally homophobic? 'Cause otherwise, their whole argument (unless I'm very much mistaken) falls pretty flat...if not becomes outright hypocritical.

 

I'm proud of you Greatwhale. But just be prepared that they may say some hurtful things that they don't mean and will regret later. Just something to keep in mind.

 

Well said, Annika. And, greatwhale, at this point--with the settlement finalized--why do you need your ex's permission to tell them? Doesn't sound like there's much for you to salvage with her, so you're free to tell your kids whatever and whenever.

I have no kids, so maybe I'm off in left field here, but I've got a Little Brother that I've spent time with since he was 6 (13 now). I believe that I could have told him I was gay at any time during our years together, and aside from a few moments of adjustment, his greatest worry would have been that I didn't want to see him anymore.

 

My recommendation would be to defer an explanation, as in: "That's a fair question, but the answer isn't straightforward. I'll be happy to discuss it with you at some point, but for now, can you settle for the fact that I told you as soon as your mother and I thought best?"

You can also give them a piece of the puzzle (you may be planning to do this anyway). Let them know that it was late in your life (well after they were born) that you really realized you were gay yourself...and that you've dealt with it (including telling people) as quickly as felt right after that point. It would be good for them to know that this is something that everyone needs to take at their own pace, and that it doesn't involve crystal clarity all at once, but rather is a process of coming to an understanding, first with yourself and then with the others in your life.

Just some thoughts. Best wishes for you!

 

Well, if my understanding and perception are right, for a brief period you could be pretty honest without causing too much trouble. As I recall, you wanted to stay in the closet with your family until the divorce was final. You didn't want that divorce mess messed up even more. Now you want all the kids to know at once so they don't have to worry about keeping secrets. And that had to wait until the youngest was in therapy. You might have to fudge some details, but no huge lies.

But...if you are forced to wait too long, things will get worse.

This aside, if we assume there is a black/white situation: A) you lie, but keep your ex happy or B) you are honest, and make your ex angry. Honestly, I don't see any reason to even seriously consider anything but B. Your ex already is angry. In fact, it's pretty clear she hates you. No matter what you do, I don't see that changing any time soon, if ever.

Meanwhile, your kids will be your kids forever. While telling a lie on this won't be the end of the world, the relationship probably would be better with a high degree of honesty. Particularly if they can tell you are lying, or if the cover story has holes. Put yourself in that position. You have just heard a story doesn't quite ring true. How would you feel?

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2014 at 02:33 PM ----------

I guess this would be my view, too.

Although I can understand trying to keep as much peace as possible. You still need to interact with your ex until the kids are grown up. And your kids have to live with her, which can't be much fun if she goes onto your father is the scum of the earth! rant.(And incidentally, I hope you pay attention to what goes on with her and the kids. If she becomes too mentally unhinged, where your kids suffer, something will need to be done.)

If this drags out, or she becomes too impossible, I think you should possibly give thought to simply telling your kids, say when they are all over for dinner, and getting it over with. Your ex will be mad, but she'll probably still be mad and hating you for the rest of the year--heck, the rest of her life--anyway.

 

You sound like a wonderful dad! Very thoughtful. Your children will be better people by telling them in my opinion. I wonder, do children tend to accept something like this when they are younger or older? My guess would be the younger you tell them the better. Keeping it age appropriate of course. My kids are basically grown and I worry about how they will handle things if I told them.
I don't think she needs to be in the conversation but I see the point of coparenting and the need to be on the same page. It might take her a while to get to a place of support if she ever does.
You are very strong in how you are handling yourself! I would have broken down in the therapists office.

 

The age of magical thinking passes at about 7 or 8. After that, kids don't usually interpret life lessons from single experiences or situations. If your kids are at least that old, your long term behavior will usually be more strongly judged than your short term decisions. Therefore, treating your wife respectfully, walking with grace and choosing tactful delivery times will be more useful goals for children over 7.

I've got a candle lit for you...
BPC

 

This is the same reasoning my Rabbi uses to explain to people why my long-term boyfriend and I are still welcome at Temple.

Now obviously someone who is not Jewish may not be aware of the myriad interpretations, discussions, and texts about just about every passage of Torah. But at the same time I find myself a little miffed that someone who is gay would be [insert word of choice] enough to quote Leviticus. I applaud your calm, rational reply! :eusa_clap

 

I quoted that part because I still think that it's impossible to be gay and to be part of any religions that forbid homosexuality. There no possible interpretations when the bible clearly say black on white "both of them have committed an abomination". Then you're free to do what you want...

 

The only issue I see here is your ex wife brainwashing your kids into thinking you're the bad guy or the spawn of Satan. Maintaining that strong bond with your kids should be a priority of yours, and I am glad that it is. Reiterate your love for them implicitly, taking them out where they please, being involved in their lives. I think this may stave off the majority of their initial hating of you.

 

Ahhh, the "selfishness" line. I got that one from my parents. There is nothing greedy or egocentric about being honest and authentic. One cannot dispute that logic.

The selfishness is on the other side. Telling others that a marriage has dissolved can be humbling, so there is a desperate need to preserve one's sense of self. And the fast (but maladaptive) way to do this is to blame the gay spouse.

In my parents' case, it was about them. They didn't want to have to concede that their son is gay. So they blamed me for having the nerve, the audacity, the ego to tell the truth. (And I hadn't even told anyone but a few friends.) It took many years to realize that this an inadvertently malicious act of self-preservation on their behalf.

You always come across as a dedicated and intentional father. I have great faith that your kids will recognize that. As you know, kids catch on to a lot. If your ex-wife is superficial or self-absorbed, they'll notice. Keep taking the high road.

 

I agree with BlueSky, I think it will go great with the kids. Your outline is great. I know you wrote to get your thoughts together I'm sure it will be a great help to someone else also.