Ok, philosophical debate/rant coming on so prepare yourselves. I went to a workshop a while back on the intersectionality of oppression and the facilitator challenged the concept of passing as a form of oppression, and I found myself agreeing with a lot they had to say. There was a quote they tossed out that was, "beauty must be who we are or the concept itself is our enemy." It made me think of all those people out there, trans* or not, that wear different clothes, jewelry, etc., walk differently, talk differently, hell act differently so they can be perceived a specific way by society even if it is at the expense of expressing themselves. Couldn't that be applied to passing as well? I mean "passing" at its core is trans* people trying to fit into societies gender stereotypes in order to be perceived as the gender they identify with. Don't get me wrong, there are PLENTY of days where I need to be seen as male so badly that I do everything I can, even wear baggy jeans and a hoody which isn't me at all, to do so. Attempting to pass forces us to comply with gender stereotypes when we should be doing the exact opposite and trying to break down those stereotypes to allow free self expression. For me, following all the passing tips out there would mean tossing most of my favorite stuff. No skinny jeans, no punk boots, no earrings, no funky hairstyles, and the list goes on. Part of being trans* for me is being able to fully express myself as ME without all of those restrictions. Anyone else out there feel "passing" is oppressive?
Well, it can only really be oppressive if it's something we are FORCED to do, and I realise that for some people there is a desperate need to pass completely out of fear that society won't accept you but it's not one I have myself. Personally, I see it more like, I know the features I want to have, and they all come from females. I want to share those and if I had them I would most likely pass...it's like passing is just a very happy bi-product of looking how I want to. At least in terms of society in general. The only time I feel I want to just pass, even if it means not staying true to myself is when I start thinking about finding a partner, because obviously I worry that the odds of me finding someone who will accept me are very small anyway, and adding that I don't look like a 'real' girl to the mix just decreases the odds. But I think that is a sentiment probably shared by most people, trans or otherwise, who don't think they meet the standards of the rest of the world and will never find love because of it.
Ooooh goodie! Me first. Yay!! Seriously, I think I'd have to agree. Yes I feel need for a more female body. No, I'm not into athletics, hunting, fishing, etc. But I also don't want to fake my voice. I want to look nice in women's attire. Passing, if have to agree, would be oppressive when you put it that way. Kind of a genderqueer way of thinking. But one I'd have to agree with, binary or not. Very insightful ... Nevermind ... Ellia's post hit first. Hi Ellia!
yes definitely. If I was a cis guy I would wear slim fit chinos and jeans. But because I have a female frame, I have to accept the fact that to pass I would need to wear baggy jeans and trousers, which I absolutely hate, on cis guys as well. I also feel the need to acquire a ridiculously muscular body to compensate for the feminine features. If I was a cis guy, I wouldn't aim for this so much. Just toned muscles would do. Same with hair. I would want short hair but it doesn't suit ftm round faces (as the guide to being a 'hot' ftm shows). I hate longer hair on a guy but what choice do you have if you want to pass, not just for others but for yourself when you look in the mirror. I'm getting angry now .
Hmm. How exactly do you want to break the stereotypes and what do you expect from the others? If you don't need their acceptance and understanding then I guess you don't need to "make a step or couple forward." But you can't force someone to understand you or to accept you. So if someone who was born a woman wears a skirt they need to understand that the people around will have hard time to believe they identify with being a man. If the person doesn't care and don't need the acceptance to be happy, then great. But I don't think passing is something oppressive. Oppressive would be if you couldn't try to pass - if you were denied the chance to dress differently (because of the religion for example) I don't get this. You don't need to be trans to fully express yourself as you. That's part of being a human being. Unless you are not free (not living in a free country for example). ---------- Post added 17th Jan 2014 at 04:04 PM ---------- :lol::lol::lol: this is great
I don't think it's oppression but I did notice that I dress more masculine than I would if I was born male, if I was born male I would be alot more comfortable with being feminine but because I was born female and don't want to be seen as female I do try look more male, I also noticed that after I came out as trans people expect 'female' things to be off limits to me like last week I was at my moms house and my sister hazel was painting our baby sister emma's nails so I picked up a clear nail polish and start doing my nails and hazel says What are you doing I thought you were a guy?. I realized that anything I do that's considered girly is like a threat to my identity as male, so I do think there is pressure to fit perfectly with our genders otherwise people see it as proof we are not what we say we are if we don't fit into the gender 'box' perfectly
I think it's helpful to see beyond the individual to understand, not merely definitions, but what is actually happening. Passing... not only, as what, but into what? If there is pressure to 'pass,' to follow what others expect us to be, then this is so because it's part of political and social conditions, not just a problem of intolerant individuals. Pressures for conformity are products of oppressive systems that work to perpetuate and reinforce them, so 'passing,' in an oppressive system is compliance to that system, regardless of personal motives. Oppressive systems do not change from within, but only when outside pressures become so great that they threaten to destabilize them if there is not some degree of accommodation to those pressures. Even then, resistance will limit how far accommodation will be permitted. The civil rights movement is model on every level here. As is the labor movement, late 19th through mid-20th century. For queers, significant change began to happen only when resistance became open and public, and came at great cost. Concessions create greater space for assimilation--really, just a bigger closet with more windows, but also relieve the oppressive system of outside pressure, and shut down the process of further change. I am troubled by how few of those on EC seem to be aware of our history, and how many mistake the possibility of open 'choice- -- to join and pass, as freedom, when it's anything but. Rather, joining the ranks of the oppressors, of the murderous, patriarchal tyrany of zombie capitalism that is galloping toward destroying much of the life on this planet. For those who live in the hologram, in the manufactured spectacle of the media and corporate elite, and believe everything is jes fine... or no worse then it's ever been, 'passing' seems like just another personal choice, like whether to wear jeans or Brooks Brs suits. Not so when you wake and face reality.
Not to speak for you, and maybe you live in a more accepting area (jealous!)but o was born male and, in my area, makes in feminine attire are presumed gay. I certainly feel VERY feminine, but here, to be recognized as the femme within, I can't just be a "mere cross dresser" or drag queen but to present as female. Maybe that whole thing is the source of my inner conflict ...:dry:
On 2nd thought, dessert tortoise is right. "Passing" in my own context is just that;attempting to concede to the oppressive system that their views are "right"and that man/woman and male/female are interchangeable. Man/woman is in our heads and male/female is between our legs. Now that I look at it that way, maybe I'm not in need of medical intervention after all!
The area im in is not great, when I do pass for a guy I pass as a gay guy some of the time (I think its my walk Its not very feminine but is kinda awkward lol) so I have had some things shouted at me and some people trying to start fights but I can deal with that, I rather be seen as male even if people think I'm gay than be seen as female which people would probably think I was a gay women anyway cause of how I look.
Dessert tortoise I'm right there with you, Nail. On. Head. "Pressures for conformity are products of oppressive systems that work to perpetuate and reinforce them, so "passing" in an oppressive system is compliance to that system, regardless of personal motives." You pretty much just summed up my entire post. Nick07 (my computers screwy so I can't copy paste) me: "Part of being trans* for me is being able to fully express myself as ME without all of those restrictions" you: " I don't get this. You don't need to be trans* to fully express yourself as you." I guess I didn't explain this very we'll. I don't need to be trans* to fully express myself but part of expressing myself involves identifying with the male end of the spectrum. I'm not necessarily trying to present and express myself as male, I'm trying to present and express myself as me, and I just happen to be male. As for what you said about needing to understand that people won't be understanding and accepting if you totally contradict the stereotypes, I agree. Most people wont get it at all. But this goes back to what I said about breaking down those stereotypes, by challenging them through self expression we can show those people that might not be understanding that our mannerisms, clothing preferences etc. that don't fit in those boxes don't undermine our identity. Though I do totally get that there are plenty of people that fit most peoples idea of male or female and there's totally nothing wrong with that, just that there are many others, myself included, who don't. Also, it takes a lot of comfort with your identity to be able to do challenge them on a daily basis and not inadvertently undermining your own identity, I'm not quite there either but I'm getting there. It's takes a very, "I don't give a :***: what you think attitude which I don't quite have yet.
Emma, if it's social conformity that makes one feel the need for medical intervention--the better to fit the binary model, that doesn't sound healthy. But if it's to more fully realize what you know you are--and can't be otherwise--a whole different thing. The hard part is sorting out what comes from outside, and what comes from within.
Desert tortoise, as I was thinking, before I read your post, I came to that conclusion myself. I don't need to identify with my parts to make me who I am. As I write this I'm in mixed dress at work. I was trying to, before, fit the male stereotype and THAT is not healthy. I realize that now and would call myself more Trans feminine moreso than be physically female. I'm a woman within and am too old to define myself by narrow minded cisfolk.
To the OP: " Also, it takes a lot of comfort with your identity to be able to do challenge them on a daily basis and not inadvertently undermining your own identity, I'm not quite there either but I'm getting there. It's takes a very, "I don't give a what you think attitude which I don't quite have yet." Exactly. Hmm. But this can mean that no matter what you do (go with the expected stereotypes or against them) it will always influence you and you will not be "free". Because if you want to live in a standard society you will need to either fit in or make yourself strong enough to not fit in and be OK with the consequences. I remember joking here some time ago that if I lived on a deserted island I could have the body of a mushroom and be OK with that. Because it will be me no matter what. Once your island is not deserted though, and the other castaway is not OK with mushrooms, you have to choose - and probably change your attitude.
