Melting Pot Myth: Is assimlation really good for Queers?

I'm going to live my life the way I want to. I don't feel pressured into assimilating into any sort of culture. If somebody has a problem with that, they can go bite the wall. Morrie Schwartz said we have to create our own culture and live how we want to. He also said we can't reject every facet of the culture around us wither. One of the Things I took from Tuesdays with Morrie is the fact you have to live life how you want to. If you want to be truly happy, you have to be your own person.

I'm not going to become some crazy satanic psychopath that sodomises little boys before I murder them because I'm an atheist and gay. I just want to live life my way and be on equal grounds with those around me. I don't need to be lectured by ANYbody on how I should be living. I don't care whether it's some conservative, fat cat politician trying to impose their beliefs via legislation, some televangelist trying to call for the death of anybody who isn't in their religious institution, or some guy that's just calling for a rejection of society.

You can't reject society and you don't need to conform to ANYTHING. Just be yourself and forget about what other people have to say.

 

That's not fair, don't patronise me like that.

But like I say, I don't actually feel any pressure to conform. I am exactly who I want to be and it just happens that I fit in well enough, and without effort, into mainstream society. I don't see why I'd want to deliberately ostracise myself.

Perhaps, but being sensitive to the struggle of others is still not something which is unique to LGBT people and I still don't see what purpose separating from mainstream society serves.

I think we've found the reason why we're not going to agree on this.

 

It definitely depends on your situation I was born in Canada and grew up with gay marriage being legal here before I even knew what it meant really. My mom goes out to gay bars with her friends who all delight in the straight girl getting hit on by lesbians, my dad and me share a keen interest in history and I feel like I'm well educated about the LGBT movement.

HOWEVER I do not feel a big push to get involved in it, due to the people I grew up around I don't feel a particular attachment to it. I was born with a lot of acceptance around me and never felt a need to get involved in it. I know I'm tremendously lucky but this acceptance means I get to pursue my own interests (Mainly practicing music like there's no tomorrow and spending hours reading whatever happens to be my newest finds.)

I've never once felt like I was being "assimilated" I'm just doing what interests me, I'm not interested in being a part of a community I'm more interested doing my own thing, I may waltz in time to time as my friends like that sort of thing but I'm happiest and most content following my own muses and leaving it at that.

Being gay isn't an issue for me and honestly I feel like I'm living what we're fighting for.
(Case in point I sorta came out accidentally to like 10 strangers today and was met with casual indifference except a few "aww" from the girls.)

 

I think complete assimilation does indeed result in loss of diversity. But everyone of us is different! One doesn't have to conform to anything and at the same one doesn't have to forcefully change to be part of the majority. It all comes down to that individual, just being yourself can bring wonders.

 

Good gracious, but I think I can still live an authentic live as a gay individual, and still be concerned about social injustice, and work to change it. I don't feel the need to cut myself off from 'heterosexual' society in order to do so. The freedom to mix and mingle with whom I chose, and feel free to be my authentic self in doing so is more important than trying to define some Holy Gay Identity that all 'queers' must follow, to save the earth. Certainly, I'd love to save the earth...and I agree there are powerful forces of greed working against it. But I don't think gays have to play some specified role. I've helped heal many a spirit, but I've never felt obligated.

I was sensitive to the injustice done to others long before I knew I was gay, and I know of may others who are, who are not gay.

 

What's this talk about homosexual people being like a different race/people? My orientation doesn't make me who I am. I am of British descent, so therefore I am British. My persuasion is just a quirk of character for me.

 

Marriage won't completely assimilate gay people into a heterosexual life style. people will spend their lives with people of the same sex regardless of pieces of paper. And just having a piece of paper doesn't convert you into a pseudo-hetero... gay people, married or not, will always have their own individual microculture; some people consider that extremely depressing, some people accept it, some people celebrate it.

 

Interesting thread. While I personally believe marriage equality is a good thing, I think it's a little, um, overvalued, in a way. That is to say, I think it's an overinflated priority. Marriage equality is a great step to take towards equality, in my opinion, and I'm not attempting to decry it as pointless or a waste of time. But I feel the queer population has other issues that are just as pressing. And, in my opinion, one of the most pressing of these issues is queer representation. While it's true that the representation of queer people in the media has been increasing, it could still grow a little more. Also, I find a lot of it just isn't accurate. In particular, there is a real underrepresentation of trans* individuals in popular culture, and I think that needs to change. I participated in a candlelight vigil on the Transgender Day of Remembrance last month, and let me tell you, it really had me thinking. Did you know that transphobic violence is actually increasing? While most forms of violent crime are actually on the decline, hate crimes and other such Matthew Shepard-esque matter is becoming more prevalent. To me, that seems to be much more pressing than marriage equality. People are dying. Dying for the simple act of being who they are. Over 240 trans* individuals were murdered this year, and most of them were under the age of 20. And that's terrible. As much as I'm thankful that up here in Canada we've had marriage equality since 2005, I just think that doesn't have to be our main prerogative when there are other really important issues. The media gives a lot of attention to the fight for marriage equality, and rightly so. But I believe that there are other battles that need and deserve our attention as a community just as much.

 

EDIT: sorry, hadn't read through the full thread before posting. Now I seem a little out of context. Well, a lot out of context.

 

If you want to change the society you live in, you need to work with it, not against it. If you want to stay away from the empire of money and death, or whatever you called it, I suggest you find yourself a little deserted island, like Robinson Crusoe. Without a guy named Friday to keep you company, mind you, or that would be hypocritical...

The idea of living on the edge of society, as you suggest in your posts, personally puts me off enormously. I could never, ever do it. My sexuality concerns who I fall in love with, not the way I live my life beyond that. I do not, really, really do not understand why I should stay away from the wider society, the same society which has made me into the person I am today, simply because I'm gay. I feel that society has given me a lot, and I want to give back to it in whatever way I can, whether I end up helping kids in distress or serving in the Armed Forces.

Are you basically saying that you look down on gays and lesbians who desire to remain within mainstream society?

I don't think this response is very well-written, but there's just so much that I want to express but I can't put it in words. So much that bothers me, I don't know where to start.

Hopefully I make at least a little bit of sense...

PS.: Don't you feel your claim of having a spiritual duty to be a healer because you are gay is a little pompous?!

 

Reform is not an illusion. Is the end of slavery a fallacy? Women's suffrage? The end of apartheid in South Africa? The fact that Same sex couples can get married in some, albeit limited places, at all? By saying that, you trample on the achievements of so many people, undermining their sacrifices, their blood, sweat and tears.

Like apostrophied stated, you have to work with society to change it. If we ran off from society, we'd only hurt ourselves by further alienating ourselves and thus worsening the issues we do face. We are not some strange new species, we're humans. We just happen to fancy the same sex, other than that, we're the same as everybody else. We just demand to be able to have the same rights and protections as everybody else.

 

I think everyone is different. I personally find mainstream society to be pretty dysfunctional. Working within such a dysfunctional system is largely a waste of time, there are too many embedded long entrenched vested interests. There is no such thing as mainstream society really. I am sure most of your friends and the people you associate with are nice and open minded, so by that definition mainstream society is good. But the economic system we inhabit is not so nice. Nor is the huge amount of influence small numbers of vested interests have.

Just curious why you think serving in the armed forces is giving back to society?

 

To serve and protect your country and its citizens. Obviously not talking about shit like the Iraq war. The military are also sent on missions to control outbreaks of violence in countries where there is ethnic violence (for example, France recently deployed to help control the violence in Africa). They also go to help after natural disasters. I believe the military is very important.

As for the rest of your post, the problems you described can only be solved by working with others and collaborating to change things which you believe are wrong. Running away to create a breakaway community of gays and lesbians isn't going to help anything. It's beyond me how someone wants to help change the world, yet doesn't want to associate with the world. Did Mother Theresa help the people in Calcutta while sitting somewhere in a convent in Albania? No, she went to Calcutta and immersed herself in the reality which she wanted to change.

Personally, the more counter-cultural the gay community becomes, the less I wish to associate with it. If I do a cost-benefit analysis, the costs of "assimilating" in the general culture are far lower than the costs of "assimilating" in the gay culture, at least for me. Only one trait binds me to other gays and lesbians: my sexuality. On the other hand, I have a million of other traits and values which link me to people around me who are part of the general culture.

As a Christian, I believe that Christians should be in the world, but not of it. In other words, we should live in the world, among others, and do good while remaining true to our beliefs and avoid being corrupted by things which we consider ungodly. Perhaps the gay community should consider the same approach.

 

As near as I can tell, reading thru this whole 'anti assimilation' thing, this is really nothing more than the mirror image of radical conservatism. Both seem more concerned with ideological purity rammed down people's throats, looking down on others on the basis of religion or sexual orientation, and a conveniently cherry picked view of history than with actually doing anything to improve peoples lives or make the world a better place.

If you want to get things done, you need to take other peoples wants/needs/desires into account and sometimes you need to compromise with them. While capitalism isn't perfect, it has done more to raise people's standard of living than any other economic system in human history. And like any tool it can be abused, leading to various problems. And while ancient Native American people's may have had a positive view of gay people they also spent centuries slaughtering and enslaving each other in wars or just on general principles.

The argument seems to be that I should throw off my chains just so I can free up space to attach a different set made by a different group that has pretty much the same beliefs, just pointing in the opposite direction. Put me down for No.

I will choose my friends and loved ones on the basis of their character, not on their orientation. I will judge ideas on their merits and my own intelligence and experience, not whether or not they pass an ideology test. I will do as I will do. And anyone, from either extreme of the social spectrum, who gets in my way will simply be swept aside.

Todd

 

Mind you, now that I think of it, I kinda support the whole anti-assimilation idea. I mean, if people who hold these types of ideas just make up their own group and go run their own show somewhere away from the Empire of Money and Death in which the rest of us live, it basically means we don't have to deal with them, no?

 

I think there's areas where assimilation is highly desirable but there's certain other areas we'd do well to steer clear of regardless of overtures made about being all about equality and anti discrimination now.

 

Hats off to this post.

I want to be a normal functioning member of society, not some person who hides away in a pseudo-culture.

You wouldn't believe the various different friends I have of very unexpected political orientations, anyway.

 

Well it depends I would say anti assimilation is simply a recognition that the society we live in isn't perfect and there are better alternatives. For instance the US was founded by people with these very beliefs.

Although we have been conditioned not to think so (hippies, communes, socialism are all disparaged for instance) there is something very noble about trying to create a better society separate from the existing one. Efforts like this are incredibly subversive and generally not tolerated, Cuba is a good example whether you agree with their approach or not, it has been actively suppressed and blockaded purely to stop it becoming a functional alternative. I'd rather be poor in Cuba than poor in the US frankly I'd have a better education, better access to health care and live in a much more tolerant society (less religious hate, less racism etc).

I agree to an extent I believe in democracy but we don't really live in Democracy at the moment. The US can't really be considered a democracy you only really have two choices and your entire system is corrupted by corporate interests from educational curriculum, to foreign policy etc. all the way up. I'd say the Swiss have a pretty good democratic process for instance but it's not perfect there either.

Capitalism is also destroying the biosphere, eleminating diversity, creating enormous inequalities and completely corrupting democracy through enormous power disparities. It has been shown that people living in strongly capitalist societies such as the US are generally much less happy than those in developing nations. Chronic stress, rat race, artificial scarcity, atomisation, breakdown of community, materialism, terrible food quality (profits rule), complete disconnection from their body and nature etc.

I would say that technological advances rather than capitalism has been what has achieved the advances of the last few years. Unfortunately if you have a capitalist society the direction of technological development is going to be towards enhancing profits not societal good.

Have to laugh at your quote about centuries spent slaughtering people what do you think we've been up to the last few centuries? World War I and II, war in Iraq and Afganistan (million+ dead, who knows how many wounded). Not to mention all the evil dictators western societies have propped up so that we get easy access to natural resources, entire countries have been enslaved for the benefit of a few. Just look at the middle east. Some countries are simply destroyed and their lifestyle obliterated, Iraq, Vietnam etc.

I think the key here is not to go to extremes however the middle ground is generally the best place to be taking the advantages and benefits of different systems. It is also boring however and less likely to get people excited.

My gut instinct is always towards freedom. I'm not sure how you can get from the point of saying that some people who think the current system isn't good want to enslave you? Especially those who are trying to make a better society.