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LGBT News N.M. Republican Said Gay Men Should Stop ‘Whoring’ And Marry Women

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Dan82, Aug 31, 2013.

  1. Jinkies

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    ^ Debate's over, man. Rakkaus and Rainyviolinist have agreed to end the feud. Not to mention this is way off topic of the OP.
     
  2. RainyViolinist

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    ^I know. I realized about halfway through the debate that we completely lost control of this thread. Heck, I can't even remember what the OP was! Let's get back on track, and I'll start by saying the senator is a crackpot who should not be in control of anything.
     
  3. qwr42

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    Wow, that was genuinely offensive. But i agree in the fact that religion and personal opinion have no place in the government.
     
  4. WeirdnessMagnet

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    You know... I always think of G.K. Chesterton and his "Eugenics and Other Evils" when I read something like that... For all the assumptions that, of course, homosexuality is bad, and so is abortion (and I think he even said something against women suffrage there) he pretty much said everything there is to say about treating families as baby-facrories... More than 100 years ago.

    Emphasis mine.
     
  5. Adi

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    Certain beliefs can be very harmful, and should be ridiculed. If you want other people to respect you, don't hold beliefs that demean them, and use them to justify persecution.
     
    #45 Adi, Sep 1, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2013
  6. qwr42

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    The irony is apauling.
    If you are ridiculing beliefs you are using yyour own beliefs to persecute the people who hold those beliefs to be true.
     
  7. Adi

    Adi
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    Some beliefs are better than others. Or are you saying, for example, that racism and non-racism are both equally valid? People use certain reasoning (or not) to come to hold certain beliefs. Sometimes he reasoning is faulty, and that leads to faulty beliefs. Sometimes these faulty beliefs leads to the suffering of others. Such beliefs should be scrutinized. Making beliefs off-limits due to the fact that they're "just beliefs", or that criticising them might "hurt" the feelings of those who hold them, simply kills any hope of discourse and social change. It's just what homophobes, racists, and other people like them want, because it validates their positions, and halts progress (think Orson Scott Card and his whole "tolerate my homphobia" rant).
     
  8. Connor22

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    I agree with that statement 100%.

    They should marry me instead.
     
  9. RainyViolinist

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    I think it's safe to say that we have lost control of this thread. I repeat, we have lost control of this thread!
    And Adi, when I said that I was saying you shouldn't ridicule beliefs that don't harm anyone or demean a certain group of people. I guess it wasn't clear :/
     
  10. Connor22

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    Nazis.


    ITS OVER, GOODNIGHT.
     
  11. GayTornado

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    William Sharer Should Stop ‘Whoring’ And Marry Men.

    That's really all I have to say.
     
  12. qwr42

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    No, but what do you accomplish by ridiculing everyone's beliefs? what do you get from saying all these hateful comments about Christians? not all Christians hate gays, not all throw their bible in your face.

    But who are you to determine the reasoning behind peoples' beliefs? You determine your own, they will determine theirs. If a racist starts beating up a black kid in the street you dont start beating him up, that is just hypocritical. You stand in front of the kid and offer yourself, that way only love and compassion is shown. Im not saying to do that beccause its christian or buddhist, im saying it because it is human. (that being said, if they rev up their tanks you better grab that kid and start running)

    Now, im fully tolerant and respect for your beliefs, im just asking for the same in return. I could care less what you believe, i dont care if you hate religion or conservatives or whatever, hate is hate. But if you start bashing people up for what they think im going to defend them no matter what they think.
     
  13. blueberrymuffin

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    So i'm curious if this guy would rather we marry *his* daughter instead. That always turns out terrifically.

    ---------- Post added 1st Sep 2013 at 10:04 PM ----------

    Sorry but most of the religious are anti gay, just a fact. What we gain? Closure - "It's just those nuts who think this way; I'll avoid them and be fine." Well, if they meet the standard i set as far as total acceptance, there are very few left, hence why i have like a single Christian friend (to my knowledge).

    The purpose of speaking up is so we aren't *oppressed* by them *which we surely will be otherwise*. It's not just what they think, but most are probably in denial, as in they don't *really* believe but are just afraid not to. It's a good thing to open their eyes to the fact we're not going to rape their kids or destroy marriage. And in the end, it shouldn't even matter and we shouldn't have to do this, because of separation of church and state. Alas, they struck first with the 30 states banning gay marriage and employment protection, or do you think those laws passed for a reason other than religion? So we fight back now.
     
  14. Adi

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    You expose the ridiculousness of their position and turn off moderates from them.

    Technically, the majority of Christians hate gays (if you go by the worldwide Christian population, and not limit yourself to just a country like the US - where the acceptance of gays is due to societal factors that have pushed the religious to conform). And what comments have I said that are really "hateful" (I consider saying something like "being gay is a sin" to be hateful). And why would a moderate/liberal christian think I'm referring to them?

    No, that's not hypocritical, that's being a concerned citizen apprehending a criminal that's committing a violent crime (that also happens to be a hate crime).

    Why do you hate free discourse and debate? How do you think the acceptance of minorities happens? See, this is a problem with a lot of Americans. You don't understand that what freedom of speech really means (sad, considering the first amendment, and all that). It means you're free from government censorship. It does not mean you're free from the scrutiny of your fellow citizens. If you're not willing to take responsibility for what you say, simply don't say anything. And if you decide to take a ridiculous, undefendable position (especially one that concerns the liberties of others), get ready to receive punches (metaphorically speaking, of course).
     
  15. qwr42

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    It happens through tolerance, you dont go and curse out a whole religion based off of a few individuals. What if a few atheists started being racist, should i then say, "atheists are all racists, atheists are more likely to kill blacks, atheists should just shut up and stop participating in government" because that is the same thing i face for being a christian in the LGBT community (which supposedly was accepting of "all" people, apperently there are a few who think they disagree). I could care less what you think of christians, but i do get very offended when you diss off my religion as a whole and insult my beliefs (that includes my bible).

    Why should it concern you if some people think being gay is a sin? YOU dont believe that, so stop letting the opinions of others bother you.
     
  16. Adi

    Adi
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    Fighting fire with fire often works. Would you like me to let the black kid get beaten to death until the police arrive?

    But it's not just a few individuals, is it?

    Well, no. It would be erroneous to base your opinion on an entire group based on the actions of one or two. That's highly unscientific. However, there studies and polls that show the majority of the religious have very homophobic beliefs. That's a fact.

    I doubt anyone in the LGBT community has ever treated you as badly as a homophobe would've treated you. Lots of LGBT people have had negative (sometimes downright traumatic) experiences with religion. You should understand that people react badly when faced with something that reminds them of past abuse. Plus, religious organizations are actively working to persecute LGBT people. I know you have nothing to do with these people, but take your anger out on them for giving even the few religious people that aren't homophobes a bad name. Don't take your anger out on their victims.

    Now, I have a problem. You say this:

    (I don't think I've ever thrown insults at anyone's religious beliefs, BTW.)

    And then you say this:

    Don't you think you're being kinda hypocritical here?
     
  17. KingdomKeyDK

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    What the hell? What kind of person thinks that? Technically, he did impregnate her, but he didn't IMPREGNATE her. He didn't commit a sexual act on Mary. If anything she was impregnated by the angel, not God. I don't believe either of those theories though. And what a jerk for that guy to tell the LGBT community to stop "whoring." It seems to me that the straight people of this society are the whores. Look at Bill Clinton and Weiner. Politics just drives me to the Void Beyond...

    ---------- Post added 3rd Sep 2013 at 10:14 AM ----------

    That's a nice point to make Tornado. Made me a smile in the face of my anger towards politicians.
     
  18. Steve712

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    I'm hoping that I might be able to weigh in here and make the discussion a bit more productive, since I notice that's it's sort of degenerating.

    Well, for what it's worth I don't think that analogy is so good. For one thing, the Bible contains fairly clear condemnations of homosexuality (males in the Old Testament, males and females both in the New). Christians profess to live by the Bible; now, admittedly, some say that the OT's laws are antiquated and have been replaced by the NT's pronouncements, while others say that Jesus upheld the OT as binding. Support for either of those views is, of course, in the Bible. Yet there are clear verses in both the OT and NT which condemn homosexuality, so claiming that the old laws are antiquated changes nothing in this context. So homophobia is in the founding document of each Christian denomination.

    And this is not a doctrine held by a mere fringe group of Christians who are simply very noisy (although we do hear from the noisy ones the most, obviously). A 2013 poll shows that approximately half of Americans hold the belief that homosexuality is sinful, and well over half of Americans reported that same-sex marriage would go against their religious views. Now, things are definitely improving, because a concurrent poll measured just under two thirds of Americans think that homosexuality should be accepted, and since this overlaps between ~10-17% (with whatever combined margin of error that I didn't bother to calculate), there must be some people who both think that it is sinful but that it should be accepted. That is definitely a good sign. Yet this also goes to show that homophobic views are a majority opinion and not an oddity.

    There are certainly many Christians who say that following the homophobic verses in the OT and NT goes against certain teachings of Jesus, such as compassion. Sure, they are technically correct, and it would be nice to see more Christians read the Bible in that way, but there is nothing in my experience to suggest that showing someone (other than a practiced rationalist) that they have contradictory beliefs will convince them to update their beliefs. And so Jesus' message of compassion and the Pauline message of homophobia will continue to live in relative peace and harmony among many minds.

    Now, in contrast, atheists have no founding documents, because atheism is not an organised religion. It's instead the negation of organised religion and religious belief; so anyone who is not part of a religion and who holds no religious beliefs is probably an atheist (agnostic or gnostic). Now, if an atheist is racist, it is for the same reason as anyone else: cultural pressure, conditioning, misinformation, etc. Except the source of those factors can't be atheism, because there is nothing in non-belief that entails or leads to racism. It's more likely to be a product of their own political views (anti-immigration, economic protectionism, etc.). If a Mormon is racist, however, it is extremely likely to be a product of their religious upbringing, because the Book of Mormon contains many racist verses, and the LDS Church has long upheld racist dogma; so being a Mormon can entail being racist. Likewise, if a Christian is homophobic, it is most likely because of the few verses in the Bible which condemn homosexuality, which were no doubt emphasised in their church and/or home; so being a Christian can entail being homophobic.

    I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I think that holding an extreme relativistic position does more harm than good. If we simply let people have whatever beliefs they like, regardless of the reasoning behind them, then we have no tools to fight racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, and other prejudiced dogmas. So I don't think I can quite agree with you when you say "But who are you to determine the reasoning behind peoples' beliefs? You determine your own, they will determine theirs." I'm certainly in no position to determine the reasoning behind their current beliefs, but I am in a pretty good position to point out flaws and offer ideas or perspectives which they might not have considered before.

    I really hope that you don't end up thinking that I'm trying to insult you by engaging you in this thread, because that is certainly not my intention. My intention is to point out certain problems that I see with what you are saying, and to offer you food for thought to feed the discussion. In other words, I'm offering my considered judgements, and I'm inviting you to think about what I'm saying and to respond with your own considered judgements. Even though by engaging with you I have disagreed with you, there is no implicit insult. Discussions like this are for self-improvement and truth seeking; to refine rusty beliefs and to reject rotten ones.

    For my part, I'm actually quite willing to agree that homosexuality is sinful; but I am not willing to concede that being sinful entails being immoral in any way. So when people put forward the idea that because homosexuality is condemned by the Bible, it should be considered immoral, and that therefore being gay entails deserving fewer rights, and being somewhat less than human, I have reason to be bothered and to feel concerned. I vocally disagree with that view because it is wrong, and because it is actively harmful toward me, you, and everyone else who happens to be gay.
     
  19. AwesomGaytheist

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    This is coming from a man whose political party says that sex is not about love or pleasure or fun, that it's only for procreation.

    Then again, that's the only reason the Duggar parents are having sex is to reproduce as much as humanly possible. I could go on for hours about what I think about them, but I'll spare you from that.
     
  20. Adi

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    Something being sinful implies that it is immoral, at least in the view of a Christian.