Exactly this. There was a study done on this that found that atheists typically know more about religion in general than the average Catholic or Protestant (Jews and Mormons are pretty close, though):
Well depends on the person. Some actually follow that idea. To them being homosexual might not be like murdering people, but is like having a drinking problem, they might even be your friends and they might never comment anything about you being gay but inside they are hoping you "liberate yourself from that evil that is unhealthy for you". I personally know a catholic like that: my dad. He has like 2 friends who are gay, but he doesnt think well of their homosexuality. And since the news have been mentioning many lgtb related things lately my dad has become annoying by frequently showing us (my family) anything he finds attacking homosexuality (he reads a lot through books and internet articles, and the author he has been reading apparently is damn homophobic). What he dont know is that even thought me and my sister are straight we actually disagree with his stance (im the one who made turned my sister from passively anti gay to actively in favor of gay people (!)), so we are getting annoyed by him being so recurrent and enthusiast in this topic, like assuming we agree:bang:. One of this days i might have to come out as an ally .
The new Pope is homophobic. Did he really call gays sinners? EVERYONE is a sinner! And did he actually basically say 'don't try to get equal rights'? wow... -.- He said he won't judge, because it states in the Bible that only god may judge.
I really do feel bad for coming to EC just once in a while and, after scrolling through the news, the only thread I am always in need to reply to is one that talks about the Church. Pope Francis and the next couple dozen popes will be LGBTQ neutral (not excommunicating LGBTQ people from the church but imposing a lifestyle of prayer and celibacy) or at best, a little pro-LGBTQ in the sense of acceptance and respect of the humanity of an individual versus their actions and decisions. The bigger picture is, the Church will have to go through a transition in which they apply the Bible to modern-time society, specifically when the clergy will have to reevaluate the way many of the vesicles are interpreted since, shocker, nothing in the Bible is taken literal unless it supports the doctrine. A couple of those literal verses of the Bible include all of those who speak about homosexuality. All of the verses who directly or indirectly speak about homosexuality refer to one of the following: rape, incest, masturbation, ritual sex and prostitution. None of them, in the context they were written, refer to two men or two women in a loving, respectful, monogamous relationship. The Church, led by Pope Francis, will see a lot of it's youth rising up and speaking their minds. A lot of the actual youth of the Church is already thinking forward, many of us already see homosexuality as something that should be measured with the same stick that we do monogamous relationships. The Church is starting to accept condoms as well. There is progress. There will be progress. However, what progress I do not see is from our actual community looking out. It is extremely sad to hear (and see and read) the comments a lot of the LGBTQ youth have about the Church, especially about how sick "we" are of their judging and hate. If you really want that to stop, please stop judging and hating yourself. It is a very difficult concept to grasp and execute because we are never taught to be nice to those who hurt us. However, how can you expect change if you do not do anything about it? The same way that social change has been achieved in the past, by speaking out about it in a respectful and inspiring way (You did not see MLKJ dropping F bombs after every other word in his speech), LGBTQ youth should unite and rise for a change, even if it feels like a losing battle since we are actually against an organized religion. Then again, perception is a big problem. What everyone sees first hand, if they're not part of the community or LGBTQ themselves, is Pride. What is Pride? A bunch of people, butt naked, celebrating the penis and the vagina. What is wrong with that? Nothing to us, a lot to them. The same way most LGBTQ believe is wrong to "worship a piece of bread and a cup of wine". They won't change that but we can change. I know the more and more I write I sound like a hypocrite. People will come at me and say "this is why you can't be gay and a Christian". I am torn between two communities who are like water and oil. It's hurting me everyday since I am Catholic by choice and Gay by birth, yet I am asking the most from the people I should not be doing so. We need to pick our battles carefully and this is one battle that I am willing to fight for, because if I succeed and my message is heard, that will make the bigger battle easier to fight and easier to "win". Win is in quotation marks because there really will never be winners. There will always be people against us, regardless of who supports us. There will always be Prop 8s. There will always be Russias and Westboro Baptist Churches. There will always be oppression and opposition, especially for LGBTQ people of color. I, however, insist. The problems won't go away if we choose not to face them. Let's make a change and face our brothers and sisters who do not support us. Let's educate them. Let's show them how the stereotype is wrong. Let's approach life with a different mindset. Only then is when the walls will break down and the first people to critique us will be the first to admit that God feels pretty damn good about that Gay couple who lived their rest of their lives in holy matrimony, despite the Church not agreeing to celebrate a marriage.
Exactly, not all christians are against homosexuality, and about those who are: hating the haters is not a solution; turning those who opress, into the ones that are oppresed is not the solution. This is a fight but it doesnt have to be a war of them vs us, it should be a fight against ignorance, intolerance and lack of empathy, a lack of empathy with is present in both sides. We got to understand them, the success of LGTB people is something scary for any christian against homosexuality, they perceive it as apocaliptics signs, suddenly they are starting to become a minority, they fear being oppressed, and anyone who is lgtb should understand those fears. Yes, you might think" yes, but they are suffering for having the wrong believes, they only have to become tolerant" but the truth is, that changing your belief is not easy, specialy not when you feel you are being forced to change. Homophobia is wrong, but we got to be understanding and even caring with homophobes, for their homophobia hurts them too, specialy now when LGTB is having success. They have been teached since childhood that being gay is bad, and its very hard to accept that your parents were wrong, or worst, to accept you have hurt people because of a wrong believe, that might even be traumatic to accept. So, lets be merciful with those who hurt, for they actually believe they are doing something good, the believe they are saving you, they dont comprhehend how much you are suffering, they dont understand you. Should they change? Yes, but that doesnt mean we have to hurt them back, and as jay suggested, we most change first if we want them to change. And have in mind many Christians and other monotheists (anyone who believe in one god,wether following or not a specific religion ), are gay friendly, pro gay, or at least open to listening. If you bash christians, those who could be friends or at least neutrals will bash back. When you close a door the door gets closed both ways. You cannot yell "accept me , you fuc..ng homophobe" and pretend them to accept you, specialy not if you also attack their religion. Wether you believe or not in god, leave god out of this, and even leave religion out of this, as religions can change and evolve. as matter of fact, the same church that criticized evolution and the roundness of earth, today supports both things, one day we might even have a openly gay pope or even a lesbian pope (ellen degeneres for pope :lol.but that day gets further and further the more the LGTB attack christians. Just like there is the phrase "hate the sin, not the sinner" we should think in terms of "hate homophobia and not the homophobes" or "hate ignorance not the ignorant" and just like we hate when people generalize about gay people and make stereotypes, lets not begin making christian's stereotypes or generalizations. Christian isnt sinonimous of homophobic. And hey! Some homophobic people are very good persons (you probably have an homophobic family member who is also a good person in other senses), and they might change if they learn better. With love, Straight ally/Sebastian, a straight guy, an ally, a monotheist.
I have stopped judging and hating myself. I've nothing against educating people as you suggest. What I do have a problem with is acting like our value as people is directly connected to what the vatican says about us.
That's no surprise, western organized religion teaches you not to question what your told, which all in all is pretty damn bad of them. So its natural that those who question it stop believing As for the pope, until he does something about the child abuse pandemic and their anti contraception attitude within the religion I don't care what he says.
As we say down here in Argieland, "Que grande nuestro Papa". I actually didn't know of this one til' now. I'm quite proud of this chap, and I hope he manages to change the Church's view on certain humanitarian aspects, not only homosexuality and it's derivatives. Too bad our government uses him as political propaganda.
His organization labeling homosexuality a "sin" is the worst and most poisonous thing it can do. Nothing's changed on that front, so this guy's nothing but a big PR phony using nice words to make the same old hate seem different.
As a member of the LGBT community and have had the experience of being raised Catholic, i think this is a step in a positive direction, however, not a very large or impressive step. The pope is unfortunately not saying anything much different than what the Catholic Church teaches. The catechism of the Catholic church states:” 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.” The Pope’s statement is positive, but somewhat condition. Pope Francis states : ” If a person is gay and seeks the Lord and is of good will, who am I to judge him?” What does the Catholic Church believe is “seeking the Lord” for homosexual persons. ”Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.” This statement does not appear to allow for gay marriage, or even a committed romantic homosexual relationship of any kind. The Pope has shown his kindness towards the LGBT community as the catechism insists that his holiness should, but his recent statements to me do not seem to be anything groundbreaking to me.
< says that who is he to judge gay people < yet says that gay people should under no condition ever get married Yeah, very convincing.
Out of the frying pan into the fire. i dont think the Catholic Church is ready for a split like the Christian Churches did. Hopefully they learned from that, and maybe the Pope is doing this so that when (if) they decide gay marriage is ok, they wont get a horrendous split.
Of the protestant churches who are OK with same sex marriage, how many are OK with contraception, abortion, sex outside of marriage etc.?
So they disagree with contraception and sex outside of marriage, but are OK with same sex marriage? I was asking because I assumed the protestant churches that accept same sex marriage are the liberal kind that don't really care much for all those bible provisions. The Catholic Church still argues against condoms, even when they could save lives in Africa, so I find it hard to believe they'll ever change their stance on gays.
