Outing Someone?

To people that study ethics: I realize I'm simplifying quite a bit here but if I don't this would be ridiculously long.

If outing a person is acceptable really depends on their moral philosophy. I'm quoting Pret Allez because I think this is a good example of utilitarianism. Please correct me if you believe I'm wrong Pret. Simply put, Utilitarianism focuses on what is best for society and morality is based on the pain and pleasure principle. The good must outweigh the bad for it to be moral which is determined by hedonistic calculus. Under utilitarianism, it would be unethical for Pret to not out someone that is causing massive harm to others if there is no other way to stop them that is as effective and quick.

However, if someone is using a different moral philosophy such as ethical formalism, outing someone to achieve a goal would be unethical. Under ethical formalism, it is unethical to out someone because it violates the categorical imperative.

Obviously there are more than two ethical systems, but the point is that depending on your ethical system it can be unethical to out a politician that is fervently homophobic and ruining lives and it can be unethical to not out the politician. Your answer depends entirely on your moral philosophy

 

I definitely do not feel a moral obligation to out someone who is a hypocrite for the sake of some sort of retributive justice that I would feel is due. I'd be very disappointed in their actions and state of mind, but I'd also feel sorry for their deep denial they're in and the brainwashing they likely went through. Outing one individual won't change anything in the larger picture, and likely won't even change that individual as they'll just deny it. So what you're left with is some sort of self-determined vengeance-based response of wronging a person because they wronged others, which I do not believe in.

I'd also worry about the reaction of this individual. I'd worry that someone in such a state of mind would be the most at risk for some kind of self-harming response, like suicide.

I don't think it's any worse for a gay person to hate gays, than for a straight person. Their actions are bad because they are hateful and harmful, and that's what is important, not their sexual orientation. They should both be dealt with the same way.

I understand we all have our own opinions what justice is and what is right. I'm not trying to counter others' arguments, merely explaining my own thoughts through comparison. (&&&)

 

The most I can say is that I'm some variety of an ethical intuitionist with a strong dissatisfaction of deontological ethics. I'm not sure that I would say I'm defending or presupposing a utilitarian view, or if I am, it's a utilitarian view that weighs harms a lot more than benefits, so I have a hard time advocating something that causes harm for a few even if it benefits others unless there are very strong and compelling benefits (of a scale that I am still having to work out).

I would like to say that what's doing the justificatory work in my response is a commitment to queer people as a class and as a family. It is no exaggeration to say that I consider you all my brothers and sisters. That instills in me a sense of duty which I project to others. I don't go so far as to say that other people have obligations necessarily (unless they commit themselves to the corresponding duty).

So for example, I have committed myself to the duty of visibility. I have to come out of the closet, because it helps queer people as a whole. I don't say that closeted queers have to be out, as long as their actions benefit or at least do not harm the queer family. If a closeted queer engages in heterosexist or transsexist behavior, she is surrendering her expectation of privacy regarding her sexuality or gender identity because she's taking the pathological side in the conflict.

To those of you who are saying "no, it's never acceptable to out someone without their consent," then I would just want to ask what kind of constraints or sanctions we can reasonably expect will check the kind of behavior that I'm describing. Being oppressed because you're queer really, really sucks. And I think that a part (not all, but certainly a part, maybe even the foundation) of any strategy for ending sexist, heterosexist, and transsexist oppression has to recognize that oppression is coming from a conflict--a one-sided war being waged against us.

As I've stated elsewhere, while I do think we're in a war, I don't think there should be a draft. You don't have to fight if you don't want to; I'll fight for you. But I don't think it's much to ask that real sanctions be brought against people who are assisting the enemy.

 

In the words of the greatest person to ever walk this earth, Yahtzee Croshaw,
"Short answer - No. Long answer - Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo."

 

Never acceptable. And when you out someone, you're basically making it seem like being gay or bi is a negative thing.

---------- Post added 23rd Apr 2013 at 08:56 PM ----------

I would describe it as a struggle, not a war. This is 2013, not 1963 when blacks were being beaten on the streets and hosed down by police officers.

 

Can I ask a few questions?

To the people who WOULD NEVER DO IT, have you ever been the victim of harassment?

Two....how would you feel if you let it go, and this political or person in power made it so that homosexuality was illegal? Or that you had to pay a fine? Or that you had to only eat tomatoes? (Gotta get a smile, people.)

I am not trying to be a jackass. I'm trying to be practical. In my personal opinion, for number one, I went through a really bad experience with a girl in HS. I looked around me and saw the support from my friends and teachers - but hardly from the other gay individuals (who existed..... They were there, but in the closet.) I was alone. No gay person had the balls to tell me it was going to be ok.

Is my response part of a grudge?Maybe. But I want to make this world a place where no one has to feel like I did. So if I have reasonable means to bring down someone who is making this world REALLY terrible for us, then I'll probably see that it happens. (That sounds so not like me....so let me add that I would never want any physical harm to come to this person, ever. It isn't how I play the game.) but if it comes out, years later, that some big opponent of ours was gay and treated us like shit for all those years, then I'm going to be upset.

 

If a good friend of mine was being cheated on and I knew it, I wouldn't stand around with my thumb up my ass while her partner made a fool of her? The likelihood I'll ever find myself in this situation is very slim but yeah, under the right circumstances, I'd out a cheater.

 

If FOX News gets to call it a culture war and conservatives wage it like it is one, then it is one. I don't have to liken queer struggles to the civil rights movement to claim that there's a real conflict. It is of a different kind and magnitude, but the enemy is still playing for keeps.

 

Never for sexual orientation or "perceived" sexual orientation. I would never consider myself a victim of anything. I've been excluded from groups mostly because I but heads with arrogant, conceited douche bags who think they are cool. And if those same arrogant, self conceited douche bags happened to be gay, I still wouldn't out them. Like I said before, it makes being gay look like a bad thing or wrong. Exposing adultery isn't the same as outing a gay person. Adultery is morally wrong and someone gets hurt. It's a very negative thing that should be exposed.

---------- Post added 23rd Apr 2013 at 10:07 PM ----------

I don't doubt the suffering but I still believe it is a stretch to compare it to the horrors of being black in the South back in those days. You CAN'T hide your skin color, but you can disguise your sexuality and gender nonconformity. Of course I am not saying that's how it should be and hopefully we'll reach a point where people can be free to express themselves without fear of persecution.

 

As a person whose sister outed me to our father just a few days ago, and in so doing betrayed my trust completely, I have to say that I don't think it's acceptable under any circumstances. Well, maybe if someone was in danger (although I can't think of a situation offhand where that would be the case, though I'm sure they exist) but not otherwise. When you have told someone about your sexual orientation, even if you haven't been explicitly clear that you want them to keep it a secret, that does not give them the right to tell other people. It is implied that you trust them if you are willing to share something so personal with them, so for them to tell someone else without your permission is blatant betrayal as far as I'm concerned.

My bitch sister, I could kill her. She and I aren't on good terms right now and the other night she decided to yell to our dad "You want to know the truth about C. (my girlfriend)?! She's dating her!!" I was honest-to-God ready to physically assault her (yes, I have some anger issues and so does she..besides the point). I have lost so much respect for her now that she's done this. I mean, there wasn't a whole lot there to begin with but this one took the cake.

To sum up, NO it is not okay to out someone unless you have their express permission (In which case, why wouldn't they just come out to the person themselves? I don't think most people want or need intermediaries in the coming out process). Never assume that it is okay to out someone.

:eusa_naug

 

I would only find it acceptable to out someone if life and limb were in imminent danger - either theirs, yours, or someone else's - and outing a person would somehow rectify that. Imminent as in if you don't out the person right this very second, someone will be seriously injured or killed. I can't imagine this scenario arises too often. I would probably also consider it acceptable to out someone if you are in an abusive relationship with a closeted person and you need to establish before the court that you are in a dating relationship with this person in order to obtain a restraining order - but only to the extent necessary to accomplish that purpose.

 

I don't think I could, even if the person is being a hypocrite. What if I out them and they committed suicide? I don't think I could carry that burden on my shoulders. To me it would be like giving the lethal injection to a murderer. Yeah he/she probably deserves it and it may make the world a better place, but to me, it's still murder and I honestly couldn't do it.

 

Ok then, this is just a scenario

My names Michael I am 16 & in 10th grade in Mississippi, I am Gay & being bullied by a group of boys, one of the boys is also Gay, but in the Closet, his name is Aaron.

It was a friend of mine that told me Aaron was Gay, as he had confided in her last year, I decide to Out Him to his friends when they are calling me a faggot & tripping me up in the corridor.

News soon spreads & Aaron's friends turn on him, rejecting him from the group, one of the friends goes home & tells his Dad, who is friends with Aaron's Dad, Aaron goes home & his Dad confronts him, his Dad is a very religious man & a Homophobe, one of the main reasons why he was in the closet, his Dad beats the crap out of him & throws him out, Aaron has nowhere to go & his life goes from bad to worse.

The moral of the story is Michael may have felt good about Outing Aaron but nobody knows what effect that may have on his life & what the consequences would be, what if the result would have been that Aaron's Dad had killed him or had put him in hospital.

I personally believe that under no circumstances should you out someone, nobody has that right, as the saying goes "Do not do unto others what you do not want others to do unto you".

 

I wouldn't say never, but pretty close to never. If a homophobic moral majority type politician was stirring up hatred, especially hatred against sexual minorities but maybe also against other other classes of people, and I knew for certain that s/he was closeted, I think that person has made himself or herself a fair target.

I don't think in that instance that it's a matter of saying that bi or homosexuality is a bad or shameful thing, as some have suggested in this thread. I think it's a matter of saying that hypocrisy is a bad and shameful thing, especially if you causing harm to others.

But outing a private person is unacceptable, in my view, as is outing a public person who you may dislike but who is not actively inciting hatred against LGBT people.

Comparisons between one people's oppression and another's is unproductive and sometimes pernicious. Speaking only for myself as a middle-class white bi man, I certainly haven't suffered anything remotely like what African-Americans suffered under slavery or Jim Crow. Not all LGBT people have my good fortune, I recognize, but none that I know of have been sold into slavery. That said, it's not a contest, and we don't need to wait until oppression reaches some minimum threshold before we speak out against it.

 

its the worst thing in the world being outed .I was outed by my step sister ''year younger than me'' just over 4 years ago It made me come out to mum-dad I lost all my mates put me in a very dark place it took a while to get things normal in a odd way I took allot of positive from it Am happy am excepted for who I am .
is it ok to out someone? regardless of the situation it will NEVER EVER BE OK !!!.

 

Due to the fact I do not hide the fact I have sexual relationships with women and yet do not identify as lesbian? Yes, and not just from the straight community. It's never nice to be harassed no matter who is doing the harassing or how justified they feel about harassing another. Sexually harassed? Again, yes. Harassed just because I'm there? Why yes, yes I have. Harassment has seen me end up in hospital with a face that has had a rather unpleasant meeting with something that did a pretty good job of roughing me over. My harassment experiences do not justify me going out and causing harm to another.

Personally I'm struggling to understand the logic that gets to this question, as in my mind working towards equality does not equal outing someone. Outing someone sends the wrong message, that we care about our fellow LGBTQ individuals except when they're obviously struggling with the fact their beliefs (at least the ones they express in public) conflict with their sexuality. I would work towards equality but I would not be involved with any movement that felt it was appropriate to out someone, no matter how dreadful they are.

So you'd let someone who is quite possibly in a worse position than you, since they are making these negative comments which conflict with their sexuality end up in a position where they do feel as you did?

I guess this is where I fail to connect the fact someone who opposes homosexuality and yet is homosexual deserves to be outed. I do not feel slighted or upset that someone who has made negative comments, or tried to pass oppressive legislation, regarding homosexuality is actually gay. I feel as if they need support, and they need us to work harder to show the world that you can be gay and it's OK, but they do not need the community to spit at them or indeed throw them to the wolves that are their own supporters. You do not want physical harm to come to them, yet you'd put them into a position where it could happen.

No. I can't. I just can't. There are better ways to bring about the change we desire than outing public figures who are closeting their own sexuality. There are better ways to show the world that equality is not going to bring their world crumbling down or significantly change how they personally live than outing a public figure for "the greater good". I'm all for the greater good, but I do not think outing someone due to their public stance on homosexuality is for the greater good. They may bring in oppressive policies, they may spout rubbish, but I cannot comprehend that throwing someone under a truck like that, someone who may lack any sort of support network since the gay community at large have already ostracised them and the people who supported them may well ostracise them too, is for the greater good. The whole concept leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

I completely agree! People who are in the closet are in the closet for a reason and will (hopefully) come out in their own good time. Under no circumstances should someone be forced out, we have no idea what their situation is and what the consequences might be.

 

In Jewish ethics, embarrassing someone is akin to murder.

If a life is put in danger from outing someone, it is unethical and dangerous (by even causing the potential for suicide or murder).

There is no justification, circumstance, or reason whatsoever for outing someone, period.